[Syndic]

RPGVault Interview said:

Jonric: Why did you decide to let characters advance while users are offline? Won't this be seen negatively by those who play the most? What restrictions will apply?

David Allen: Actually, the studies system balances the gameplay out quite a bit. Those who can only put in a few hours a week, but do so over a year can build up core studies that make them very powerful, even to the point of being able to compete with hardcore users whose longevity is a few weeks or months.

This won't be seen negatively at all since serious players can manage their studies in parallel with building their character skills and leveling. Having the same "study time" still leaves room for focused studies to make characters stronger or weaker in certain areas.

Some studies may require others as prerequisites, but that's the only limitation right now. Future ones may be class-specific, etc., but that's down the road.

Now I'm intrigued by a study system, like many the only place I have seen this so far is in EVE. Unlike EVE though study in Alganon is mixed in with a level/skill system.

At first I thought the study system was along the lines of reaching a milestone and not being able to advance until the study in that area was complete.
Now it seems to be coming to light that study is more along the lines of EVE's where your character is continually studying irrespective of your level or skills. Not to say that some study may or may not have a level requirement in the future.

The example in the quote above is taken from the point of view of 2 players of about the same level, having gained that over vast differences in time, one casual, one hardcore.

Now being devil's advocate here I would like to poke at this a bit. I see this study falling into the same hole as EVE's has in that with study being a continual item someone who starts today will never catch up to someone who started a few months ago, no matter how hard they try or what effort they put in they will always be 3 months behind. Essentially if you don't start Alganon on day 1, your behind. Take into account that 6 races and 3 classes are not being released at launch, anyone playing them will be behind by whatever time frame is given to releasing them, sure an Ogre Soldier created as soon as they can is going to be equal to the next Ogre soldier created at the same time, but they may be a far cry to the Human Soldier that was created many months before. Fast forward say 3 years, someone else finds Alganon and wants to give it a try, just how far behind are they, with no option to "catch up".

Will the skills being studied not be that powerful that how much study differs between players will not have a large impact? If so then the example of the casual player at the start is not a strong case for the benefit of study.

There is also the amount of study subjects and the time taken to study them all. For example if new studies came out every 12 months and it took 10 months to learn them all then this would give players who joined late a chance to catch up. Although you then introduce the downside that if you can study them all there really is no choice or character customisation involved in study. If there is more study then time left in the universe then the downside of not being on equal footing gets worse as the difference in character start times gets further apart and the older the game gets. Example would be I would never play EVE becuase I'm already many years behind the crowd, and already 1 day behind the guy who started yesterday.

I understand that as time goes by the differences between 2 players may get more insignificant, 2 months difference between accounts 1 year old is much greater than 2 months between accounts 5 years old. Although after 5 years there is now a 5 year gap between that player and someone new, and there is nothing they can do about it. So in 3 months when that players catches up in level, they are still 5 years behind in study.

What does all this mean? Maybe nothing, I could just be getting worked up over an idea that will work well in implementation. Maybe no-one will even care, although my experience playing MMO's says that they will.

Is there a solution that can let a player study faster without it being abused? Can a late comer to the game really "catch up"? What about that casual player who likes the variety of alts?

I'm not saying I don't like the study system (from what details we have) or to get rid of it (not that you would). I just have some concerns of what this could do to the game several years down the track. Am I worried for nothing?

[Syndic]

1 solution a friend gave me for switching characters is to give the player the ability to "drain" study of the old character and apply it to the new one. This would help when the new races and classes are introduced. Even to the point of maybe having the player delete the old character to gain back that study time.

[Berek]

An interesting thought Syndic on the potential limitations of the Study system. I'll see if he can get Hyuu in here and respond with some additional details.

[Vanpry]

Well I hope that the study system only enhances your character but doesn't over power it kind of like Eve does.

Edit:
My real concern is choosing between crafting and adventure studies.

[Dyster]

One other thing to consider is that not everyone focuses and plays a single character. Yes, there will be people that only play and focus on a single character and dump all their study time into that one character. But I'd say 95% of my friends play multiple characters.

They will likely split their study time into these multiple characters, since to them they are all equally important and like having the freedom to play the one they feel like or is needed at the time. They won't want to gimp all their characters for the benefit of a single one, when they play them all equally.

[rysonue]

I think the main point your missing is that no matter what someone who is 5years of continual playing even if someone casual will always be ahead. If i started a new char in WoW. I would have no hope against the other people that have tons of alts and access to the good armor and such. Unless there is a huge difference in the slope of the progression graphs (yes calculus does apply here) then the new player can't catch up.

[Vanpry]

rysonue, on Feb 26 2009, 03:29 PM, said:

I think the main point your missing is that no matter what someone who is 5years of continual playing even if someone casual will always be ahead. If i started a new char in WoW. I would have no hope against the other people that have tons of alts and access to the good armor and such. Unless there is a huge difference in the slope of the progression graphs (yes calculus does apply here) then the new player can't catch up.

That's not true. If you can't raid which most casual people can't you will always be at a disadvantage. A 5 year old casual played character will be vastly weaker then an (insert time to max level) (like 2 week old ) character that can raid constantly.

WoW like most mmo are only casual friendly up to max level then it become a choice of
A. Start playing hardcore with raids.
B. Reroll an alt.
C. Quit and find a new game.

[Syndic]

Vanpry is right in that regard.

In current MMO's sure you weren't around when they did the big combat change back in the update 3 years ago, or seen the introduction of all those expansions but you still have the ability to get to max level and start raiding. Once you have some raiding under your belt your equal to all those others that have been at that stage for some time. I guess this is the nature of end game, but if there is no end game then how does someone new find themselves joining in with the older crowd. How do you get the older crowd to embrace the newer members of the game for that high end content when the perception is these characters are weaker than others. Do they wait around until time has given them the ability to do what they need to do?

This problem doesn't only form becuase of the system of study but becuase of players perception of what study does. I've seen it many times where LFM (looking for more) shouts across the zone stipulate a requirement of the player they are looking for to have advanced to a certain point. Now the content most likely doesn't need the requirement asked for but the players, but you have to be realistic and face that players will want the very best that they can get in any situation, will that very best be the player who has been around the longest? Sure some of these stipulations are out of casual players hands (like certain raid armour, weapons etc), and the study system would certainly allow for a casual player to meet requirements where a hardcore player doesn't, as long as they started playing the game early enough.

Do we start seeing shouts like "Level 45 Soldier LFG, with 3 years study."

[Slyster]

Syndic, on Feb 26 2009, 08:14 PM, said:

Do we start seeing shouts like "Level 45 Soldier LFG, with 3 years study."

I really do not want that to happen.

I am hoping study just gives an exp gain , craft gain or maybe access to new abilities. Just choose what you want to study before logging off or whatever. Log back on the next day and see a 10% exp gain or craft gain or unlock a new attack / spell.

Nothing that would keep veterans far ahead of new players or casuals.

Wait and see I guess.

[Jergis]

-Although good thoughts here, this problem will be present to some degree in *every* MMO that uses advancement of some type, capped or not. Players can be elitist sonuvaguns whether it is necessary or not. The study system really isn't going to affect this problem as much as the core system of the game does. If everyone has equal stats, skills, spells, etc then no problem a la console games. But in an MMO wherein you fight for shinies, skill advance, etc there isn't a true fix.

In reality, as a casual player i know i'm not going to be as powerful as someone that plays more often. That's the way it should be, honestly. In my job, if i put in the time and effort to get that published article out for the journal, i deserve the accolades. But i'm lazy. I'm comfortable at my "power level" for my job and do not wish to exert the extra effort.

Does that mean i want them to give me the accolades without the work? No, that's just plain silly.

There should be a difference in relative power levels for players that play hardcore and the casual player. The study system seems to be an attempt to take the statistical portions of those differences and lessen them. I think it's great, but to demand or ask them to further prevent player differentials in power is a bit odd in light of what this is.

Syndic is not pointing to one problem, though, there are multiple layers. Newer players will always be disadvantaged *in the beginning* but have the opportunity to catch up, learn the game, etc from other players and friends. The Family system was initially envisioned to help close that gap and that learning curve, and i'm a bit nervous that they're still playing with that idea and possibly getting rid of it as initially proposed.

Skills, whether studied or earned through practice, will always be higher for players that have been around longer versus newer player sin a game with no skill caps. That's the way it's supposed to be, quite frankly. The 7 years of experience in my profession today means i have a good knowledge base, but i ain't nearly as well-rounded in form or knowledge as a veteran of the business. It's an odd proposition to be forwarding that the gap should be closed in any game where there is a competitive nature or aspect to it. Longer-term players should be rewarded by those higher skill points or more time to study. To do otherwise would dramatically shift the MMO paradigm to something that could potentially cut out variety, challenge, and competition. I wouldn't want to play such a game for a fantasy setting violence-based MMO.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the stats don't make the avatar, player tactics and knowledge of their abilities can close any statistical gap. At the end of the day, i think the worries are premature, but during beta hopefully we can see some of the workings of the game, give appropriate feedback, and at least set some of your worries to rest.

Jergis

[Vanpry]

"In reality, as a casual player i know i'm not going to be as powerful as someone that plays more often. That's the way it should be, honestly."

Problem with that equation and with every mmo currently out there is:
Casual Player plays 2 hours a night every night for a total of 14 hours a week. Hardcore (raid) player plays 1 day for 6 hours for a total of 6 hours a week. The player that plays less will be more powerful hands down.

I raid but not really because I overly enjoy it, but because that is all there is to do.



It sounds like and maybe I'm just reading into it that the study system will bridge the gap between geared and non geared people. A 1 year old character with the best gear a casual player can get will be on par with a 1 month old character all decked out in raid gear through skills studied.

[Jergis]

-Our definitions of "casual" and "hardcore" are a bit different, then.

I get the points here. I do. And i am looking forward to how studying develops in Alganon and can be an enjoyable, tactical part of the game for hardcore and casual player alike.

Jergis, getting back to work now

[Vanpry]

Well the numbers can be played around with but the outcome is still the same. Someone could play more hours per week and still be vastly weaker then someone that puts all their hours in 1 sitting.

[Jergis]

-At that point, it's not about play time though. It'd be more about what they are doing with that time. If the casual player's goal, playing 2 hours a night, was to be the uber-est they could be, i think they could accomplish that goal (in *most* games) as well or better than the one-shot a week player. It's about the style of play as much as time, however. Many casual players just craft, or socialize, or try to complete every single darn quest they can without regard to the number of stamina points they have or the level of their resist armor ratings.

It's all about, style, man. Yeah, groovy.

Seriously, the study system sounds like a good addition. Let's see where it goes.

Jergis

[Vanpry]

Jergis, on Feb 27 2009, 03:15 PM, said:

-At that point, it's not about play time though. It'd be more about what they are doing with that time. If the casual player's goal, playing 2 hours a night, was to be the uber-est they could be, i think they could accomplish that goal (in *most* games) as well or better than the one-shot a week player. It's about the style of play as much as time, however. Many casual players just craft, or socialize, or try to complete every single darn quest they can without regard to the number of stamina points they have or the level of their resist armor ratings.

It's all about, style, man. Yeah, groovy.

Seriously, the study system sounds like a good addition. Let's see where it goes.

Jergis

That's not true. You could never accomplish your goal of being uber-est without raiding, unless your goal was to be the uber-est of the weaklings. Every raiding guild I know and have been a part of raids 3 to 5 times a week (not mandatory to make all but most) at 4+ hours a shot. Not to mention all the time spent preping from the raid. To me a casual person can not dedicate that much time. Hell I don't consider myself casual and I couldn't keep that schedule. I spent all my time raiding or preping for the raid. It really stopped being fun.

Player can't craft their way into uberness either because crafted gear is sub par compared to raid gear. The crafted gear that is raid quality mats and receipts only drop from raids.

I'm all for the study system. Like I said I think it will bridge the current gab between dedicated people and raid people.

[Jergis]

Vanpry, on Feb 27 2009, 02:47 PM, said:

That's not true. You could never accomplish your goal of being uber-est without raiding, unless your goal was to be the uber-est of the weaklings.

-My character in WoW, LotRO and EQ2 were no weaklings, i assure you. The presumption is too general here.

I agree with your statement conditionally. The condition is the game. You don't need to be a power raider to have a great WoW character that can hold their own in what limited PvP WoW has. You don't have to be an uber-raider to thrash dragons with the best of them in the new Norrath.

But in EQ? UO? Matrix? Vanguard? Absolutely you needed to put in quality hours.

I'm not trying to argue, just trying to broaden your perspective and illuminate mine a bit.

Bottom Line: We both wish the best for Alganon, and we both hope the study system rounds the sharp edges that develop between casual and hardcore no matter the definition.

Jergis, looking forward to kicking Vanpry's uber-raiding character into the dirt with Jergis, King of the Weaklings

[Vanpry]

I don't know what WoW you are playing but the one I used to play I would get creamed by characters in tier 6 I think while I was lucky to have some tier 1 pieces in both battle grounds and especially arenas. Now maybe that has changes with the latest release. But from what I experienced WoW is the poster child for gear equals everything.

I know with arena teams people used to cheat by using alts to push their team ranks down while keeping their mains individual rating high just so they could fight teams they completely out geared.

LOTRO pvp I haven't really touched much. I don't know how creeps stacks up against a raid geared peeps.

EQ never played.

[Jergis]

-Oh, i forgot to mention.

The last time i logged into World of Warcraft was November 12, 2006.

And i could kick the crap out of any raider with my Horde gang.

This is what this discussion is all about. Perspective. WoW has become a game of loot that could have been so much more. The infrastructure of the game, however, didn't provide for non-loot scaling. Thus the talks recently of giving folks the option to start *any* class character at higher than first level to keep competition and content exposure up for the newer material.

The other point is that i'm not talking about PvP only. The measure of an avatar is not solely on what he can do in PvP but what challenges he can overcome in PvE. For that, in most games, raiding is also not a required activity unless you value the asshats that run groups that won't take folks without needlessly-uber gear.

We'll see, but i'm hoping everyone finds a place to play in Alganon.

Jergis

[Syndic]

Jergis, on Feb 28 2009, 12:09 AM, said:

In reality, as a casual player i know i'm not going to be as powerful as someone that plays more often. That's the way it should be, honestly. In my job, if i put in the time and effort to get that published article out for the journal, i deserve the accolades. But i'm lazy. I'm comfortable at my "power level" for my job and do not wish to exert the extra effort.

Does that mean i want them to give me the accolades without the work? No, that's just plain silly.

There should be a difference in relative power levels for players that play hardcore and the casual player. The study system seems to be an attempt to take the statistical portions of those differences and lessen them. I think it's great, but to demand or ask them to further prevent player differentials in power is a bit odd in light of what this is.

It's not really about effort placed into the game and I think that's what I'm trying to get at, it's just a case of who signed up first. Study removes effort from the equation.

Jergis, on Feb 28 2009, 12:09 AM, said:

Skills, whether studied or earned through practice, will always be higher for players that have been around longer versus newer player sin a game with no skill caps. That's the way it's supposed to be, quite frankly. The 7 years of experience in my profession today means i have a good knowledge base, but i ain't nearly as well-rounded in form or knowledge as a veteran of the business. It's an odd proposition to be forwarding that the gap should be closed in any game where there is a competitive nature or aspect to it. Longer-term players should be rewarded by those higher skill points or more time to study. To do otherwise would dramatically shift the MMO paradigm to something that could potentially cut out variety, challenge, and competition. I wouldn't want to play such a game for a fantasy setting violence-based MMO.

That is not so true, you could log into EQ2, WoW, AoC or just about any fantasy MMO and you can catch up to the top level of the game. At the moment players who have been there for a long time are sitting at the max waiting for an extension. In that time every level you can every advancement you make is getting you closer to them. The speed at which you catch them is dictated by how much time you place into the game on advancing. Even a game with a cap gives you this ability, you just need to place more time into the game than those at the top. With a study system this is no longer true, every player travels through study advancement at the same pace, there is no option to catch up or get ahead, it simply breaks down into who started first.

Jergis, on Feb 28 2009, 12:09 AM, said:

Another thing to keep in mind is that the stats don't make the avatar, player tactics and knowledge of their abilities can close any statistical gap. At the end of the day, i think the worries are premature, but during beta hopefully we can see some of the workings of the game, give appropriate feedback, and at least set some of your worries to rest.

I realise that the way someone plays can have a large impact, but until you get to know someone the stats is all you have to go by. I was around back in the day when EQ first added Alternate Advancement to the game. It added another requirement for players to meet when joining guilds/groups etc. For every type of advancement you introduce to characters (Level, Traits, Gear, AA etc) you add another requirement that a player may have to pass to be "accepted". I'm just hoping that study doesn't increase the requirements of players for social gathering, I'm sure in some circles it will.

[Jergis]

-AA...good grief, it felt like it took me longer to get that 3rd tic in "Run" than it did to hit 70 for some reason...

Jergis