[Danj]

We all have games we love, even if there are aspects to them that drive us batty. What are some of the things other games have done that make you roll your eyes, chuck your mouse across the room, or have the neighbors come over and politely point out that your windows are open and they would prefer if their children didn't hear that kind of language?
Not that that has ever happened to me or anything.
More than once.
a month.

So try to divorce the name of the game from the example so this doesn't turn into a flamewar on why X game sucks and why Y game is better.

So in no particular order -

Excessive clickfests - whether its click to move, 100% menu driven, or mostly crafting, I hate when I have to click needlessly. My hands are pretty beat up from blacksmithing (real life, not in game) and a misspent youth and anything that forces me to click a lot for an extended period of time usually gets deleted after my hands are able to uncurl from their claw shape. I'd have to say that crafting has been the culprit in most of these. Let me just get the mats in my inventory and press the "make all" button.

Cash shops/pay per perk - Beyond the fact I don't feel like wasting money on virtual garbage, I've seen an annoying trend in micro payment based MMOs taking, what appears to me, steps back in user features in order to sell something that has become a standard feature of most other MMOs out there. One game I played only sold purely cosmetic cash shop items, and that wasn't so bad, but another allowed you to level 5x faster, attack players and retreat to an area where the freeloaders couldnt go, and basically provide a serious imbalance in the player base. According to the forums to be competitive you had to pony up about $30 a month for stuff.

Limited social options - an unlimited friends/ignore list with notes isn't so much to ask is it? It was a tad embarassing to go on a pug and realize the tank wasn't quiet, I had him on ignore and couldn't remember why.

Loss through death - what was considered standard was to lose XP (and therefore the time you spent) on death. This is mostly going away, but damn, that used to hurt, especially when you would lose a level.

Non customizable UIs - so I've had the same setup for over 12 years now in most MMOs that allow customization. When I try a game that doesn't its jarring and short lived.

Looking at the list its apparent that games have gotten better nearly at the same rate I've gotten grumpier

[November]

Danj, on Feb 26 2009, 12:16 AM, said:

Loss through death - what was considered standard was to lose XP (and therefore the time you spent) on death. This is mostly going away, but damn, that used to hurt, especially when you would lose a level.

I disagree. No loss, no meaning. That's exactly the reason why all those wannabe PvP titles failed.

Lineage 2 and Eve Online - pretty damn successful games. One has XP loss, the other a financial loss on death. The possibility of losing something is a key element in every game, especially when you challenge other players.

MMO developers just tend to ignore that, because the community keeps begging to have it all as easy as possible.

[Syndic]

Danj, on Feb 26 2009, 08:16 AM, said:

Loss through death - what was considered standard was to lose XP (and therefore the time you spent) on death. This is mostly going away, but damn, that used to hurt, especially when you would lose a level.

I don't disagree but I still remember those nights when I would walk away from the computer steaming and 1/2 a level lower than when I started. Sure it was upsetting but it certainly made gaining a new level that much sweeter.

Not that I really want to go back to those days but reminiscing is such bliss.

[Jergis]

-A lot of this depends on what game you want to make. Quest says they want to get feedback and make the game "we" want to play, but in the end "we" are the absolute last people they should talk to for a game like this. The vocal portion of the player base is not the majority of who typically buys the game. From an economics standpoint, they need to hire PR and ad people for that task, focus groups, looked what worked elsewhere and what didn't, etc. Sure, we as experienced players can tell them what bugs us, what would be cool, but in the end the majority of us are simply consumers. If our input controlled the end product, the game would lack focus due to dev time restrictions.

Case in point, Pirates of the Burning Sea. I have a bit of knowledge behind-the-curtain on this one, but when they were developing this in the early stages (and their delta green idea) no avatar combat was in. Then, they listened to us, MMO players, and heeded our warnings that they needed avatar combat to be a force/player in the economic space of MMOs. They took dev time and energy away from the *excellent* ship simulator they were building (which would have been enough) and tried to develop more than they reasonably could complete by launch.

That game had potential to be one of the best niche products out there. It was originally envisioned to be, and darn well should have been, a great ship sim, Realm versus Realm, trade game. Then, when "we" started talking and they listening, it ruined the whole dang thing. Do not repeat this mistake, Quest. Know what your game is built to be, and embrace it. Don't muddy it.

Death penalty: A minority of players *generally* want harsh death penalties. And half again of those people have never played the older games where it was truly harsh. For devs to listen to them, instead of the majority of players out there that don't talk on boards but consume their games, listening to those folks is dangerous for a business.

I agree with November and others that i personally would find a death penalty that was harsher more fun as it poses a challenge. In previous posts, i've iterated i want death to mean something and hate when i do not fear death, so i commit suicide to travel back to base camp to sell off my packs full of junk. If you are going to have a penalty, make it a penalty. And no, WoW does not have a death penalty. It has what i call a "hangover". Nothing more.

Bottom line: Listening to players too much is a dangerous thing that can ruin a game before it starts. Sure, we have great input to give, but i'd rather they take it with a gallon of salt than alter the very fabric of the game due to the limited feedback from communicative players.

Jergis

[Berek]

An interesting example and one true to how many MMOs and games play out these days. I liked Pirates of the Burning Sea, still do, but its one of those victims of too much in too little time without a steady direction. It did good overall, but you're right.

I can guarantee that we will listen to you, that you should have no doubt on. But in addition, we are creating Alganon in a way that may ultimately not be for 100% everyone. We'll try not to muddy the waters too much, in other words .

[Elrac]

Things I hate:

• Getting stuck (under a fence, in a bush... collision physics, in other words)
  
• Sloppy targetting (e.g. I have multiple opponents, kill one, hit TAB for next opponent... and target stays locked on a corpse. Sure, maybe I want to loot it, but later!)
  
• Slow-spawning, rare, overfarmed mobs or resources
  
• Frequent, unpredictable failure to click on a target
  
• Unsilenceable pop-ups
  
• An overabundance of UPS (bring me a shrubbery!) quests: Frequent and long distance travel with no sensible rationale.

[clownz]

As far as death goes I feel there that should be something that at least causes a setback somehow, be it financially, time-wise, temp stat drain or something even totally different. I had a thought on the way I would handle it if I ever made my own game.

Without going into too much detail there would be replaceable additions to armor or weapons that would have a chance to either break, be lootable or remain. Higher quality enhancements would have less of a chance to break or be looted.

The low end of the enhancements would be extremely common (also good chance of being looted or broken) and the highest tier would require some work for the reagents perhaps (nothing too demanding and soloable) and have less of a chance being looted or broken.

Basically it helps to drain the economy, gives crafters a continuing source of income, and means something is on the line when you fight.

Alternately people could go into battle without anything, but it would be a slight disadvantage to do so.

[Vanpry]

Being forces to kill kill kill all the time when sometimes all I really want to do is sit back relax and make or gather some stuff.

The complete neglect of non combat skills.

Needing rare items just to gain crafting skill.

Running around looking for nodes when someone is running a minute or 2 in front of me. I hate feeling like I'm wasting my time. Running around not being able to find nodes is a complete waste of time.

That crafting is a money sink.

That materials for items are worth far more then the items.

Crafting receipts drop off mobs.

Wow I guess basically everything crafting has become. ;D

[kaimyrrh]

grey mob aggro, snares!
ui's you cant alter
poor character models
poor chat options
poor lfg options

[LadyBhaal]

I want a death penalty, and I want it to hurt. Death should actually mean something. The best model I've heard was that characters actually had an age. You start off at 15ish, and at 100 you die of old age. Character gone, go roll up another. You age 1 year per year of real time, so that's fine, your char will last 85 years real time. The game probably won't. But, dying cost you a year of life, then 2, then 4, then 8. It also lost you xp and items but that's pretty negligible. This death system taught you to take the game seriously. Death HURT! (and yes, people will whinge that it's just too unfair on the high levels who have only 1 death to go before they're out of years but seriously, if the game is built right, and you're careful, you can survive with no deaths. We do it in RL all the time.)

I want quests that make sense. I want NPC's who aren't lazy. Why can't they go solve their own problems?

I want monsters of equal level to actually be a challenge. How many games have the L1 monsters weak and pathetic just because? I want a L1 goblin to be an even match for a L1 PC, and win about 1/2 of the time.

I want monsters with decent AI. Why is it that I can kill a L1 goblin right in front of his mates and they don't even notice? Why aren't I immediately swarmed? I want monsters with knowledge of tactics, how to use terrain, to flank, to use height advantages. To do everything they possibly can to kill me quickly and efficiently.

I want a game that's actually threatening. I want to feel like I've seriously achieved something by even getting to L2. I want combat to be seriously dangerous.

And this has turned into an 'I want' instead of an 'I hate' post. Sorry about that *giggles*

[Razurescens]

-I dont like ennoying achievements systems, or at least some of the ridiculous goals in the achievement systems.

[Berek]

One of the more interesting aspects of the Library system is the way we do achievements. Better to think of them as public accomplishments. You will see some of these directly reflected in the Library, helping you to get a better understanding of what the players around you have accomplished!

[Vanpry]

LadyBhaal, on Feb 26 2009, 08:14 PM, said:

I want a death penalty, and I want it to hurt. Death should actually mean something. The best model I've heard was that characters actually had an age. You start off at 15ish, and at 100 you die of old age. Character gone, go roll up another. You age 1 year per year of real time, so that's fine, your char will last 85 years real time. The game probably won't. But, dying cost you a year of life, then 2, then 4, then 8. It also lost you xp and items but that's pretty negligible. This death system taught you to take the game seriously. Death HURT! (and yes, people will whinge that it's just too unfair on the high levels who have only 1 death to go before they're out of years but seriously, if the game is built right, and you're careful, you can survive with no deaths. We do it in RL all the time.)

I want quests that make sense. I want NPC's who aren't lazy. Why can't they go solve their own problems?

I want monsters of equal level to actually be a challenge. How many games have the L1 monsters weak and pathetic just because? I want a L1 goblin to be an even match for a L1 PC, and win about 1/2 of the time.

I want monsters with decent AI. Why is it that I can kill a L1 goblin right in front of his mates and they don't even notice? Why aren't I immediately swarmed? I want monsters with knowledge of tactics, how to use terrain, to flank, to use height advantages. To do everything they possibly can to kill me quickly and efficiently.

I want a game that's actually threatening. I want to feel like I've seriously achieved something by even getting to L2. I want combat to be seriously dangerous.

And this has turned into an 'I want' instead of an 'I hate' post. Sorry about that *giggles*

Wow sounds like you need some more excitement in your real life. I've never understood this desire for pain and fustration in games. Not saying what you want is wrong I just don't understand it. I've always seen games as a way to escape and relax.

[Sharra]

I am with Vanpry here.

Not that I am against any kind of excitement and challenge. Those contents are very important for a game, no question. But they do not need to be around every corner. Being there so I can seek them out when I want to ... great. Being forced upon me .... not so great.

There is a reason I never play on PvP servers. To have to be on guard every second in a game is an horrible vision for me.

When I come from work, I need a slow paced game that gives me a lot of opportunity to relax. Maybe some mindless resource gathering where I do not have to worry about anything, maybe some bashing of easy mobs to relieve stress. Those kind of things a lot of players would be complaining about as being boring... I love and need that part of games. Later on, I might want some more excitement and so I go out and find something more challenging to do, usually in a group though.

I most certainly do not want to loose half of the fights against a mob of my own level. Not even without a death penalty, I hate to die in a game, just in principle. But hard mobs combined with harsh death penalties would just be too frustrating. That is nothing I would go for.

As for reality in a game, I do not need that at all. It's a fantasy world and if a strong paladin needs my help to fetch him his slippers, fine, I go for it. As long as he pays me for it, that is.

But that's how it is: different folx, different strokes.

[tarragon]

The thing I hate the most in an MMORPG? Well that has to be when the game developers forget the RPG part of the game. I am not talking about being a role player either. I want to feel involved in the game. Whether I have a half hour or four hours to play doesn't matter. I want to feel a connection with my character. I want my decisions to have consequences. If my character should die I want to feel some sense of loss for it so next time i won't just run in that cave.

These days too many MMO's are just one player games with a social networking feature. The days are gone when i could log on for a bit and feel like in this world I am part of something larger. I exist as a hero or a villain but know that my choice is what effects that not some badly written quest.

Gaming has come a long way and many things have been gained in the process. These games are still a tremendous vehicle for a sharp imagination. I also feel that just a few integral things have been lost along the way. I yearn to put the Role back into MMORPG.


In the end I just might be living in a fantasy world.

[Jergis]

-The one stream through all these comments seems to be one word:

Options.

Options in play style, server, challenges available, quest lines, the look of the user interface, your connection to the world, deity, etc...

I enjoy reading all these ideas, and i hope we get stuff we all can enjoy.

Jergis, copping out of contributing by playing the village suck-up today

[LadyBhaal]

Vampry, Sharra:

I also enjoy cute fluffly light games. I'm currently playing Luna Online and I'm happy there :) It's cute :) and the dating system doesn't assume you're het :)

But there are plenty of light cute fluffy games out there. That's why I posted what I did. I'd love to try a game like that. Something like the old WFRP pen and paper games were like. I know we're supposed to be heroes, but most of what I do in a game rarely feels heroic.

[Akshobhya]

What I hate, in many recent MMOs, is the proliferation of abilities on the hotbars. In most fantasy MMOs I've tried recently I end up with five, six, or more hotbars just filled with crap.

On the other hand, when I played Final Fantasy XI, there were far fewer abilities, but they really meant something when I used one.

Giving us a "new" ability every level (especially when most of them aren't even new, and are simply upgrades of existing ones) does not make the game more challenging or interesting.

Also, I hate how spammy combat has gotten. I would rather have slower, more cerebral combat where I have to react to in game events. I must be the only person in the world who doesn't like having to hit a key five times a second when engaging in combat.

[Vanpry]

LadyBhaal, on Feb 27 2009, 04:13 PM, said:

Vampry, Sharra:

I also enjoy cute fluffly light games. I'm currently playing Luna Online and I'm happy there It's cute and the dating system doesn't assume you're het

But there are plenty of light cute fluffy games out there. That's why I posted what I did. I'd love to try a game like that. Something like the old WFRP pen and paper games were like. I know we're supposed to be heroes, but most of what I do in a game rarely feels heroic.

Like I said I'm not saying what you are asking for is wrong I just don't understand it. I started mmo when they were pretty brutal. Nothing like walking off the vesper bridge (UO) to be greeted by 2 explosion and a cor por then dirt nap. PKs take all your stuff just for S&G not like it's worth anything.

Then there was FFXI take a hour just to find a **** group. Finally get in one do some killing gain that level (YES!!!) and then 10 minutes later die loose all the xp and level you just gained plus some. Group decides they have had enough and break up. Well I guess back to the LFG channel to try to make up the xp I just lost.

I'm all for challenge I thing mmo have gone a bit to soft I just don't get the need to be punished.

[Syndic]

tarragon, on Feb 28 2009, 04:30 AM, said:

The thing I hate the most in an MMORPG? Well that has to be when the game developers forget the RPG part of the game. I am not talking about being a role player either. I want to feel involved in the game. Whether I have a half hour or four hours to play doesn't matter. I want to feel a connection with my character. I want my decisions to have consequences. If my character should die I want to feel some sense of loss for it so next time i won't just run in that cave.

I think that is a very good point also. These days all descisions in the game are changeable or have little impact on your character. How can you become attached to your character if your efforts and descision processes can be changed on a whim. Role playing is about becoming part of your character in the world if their are little to no consequences for anything you do how do you feel with your character?