[Spur]

Ok....so im on the Hokk server..and yes it is a ghost town. Suppost to be playing this "massive"online game...hard to do with the Whopping 3-6 players online. Been playing just about daily now since the start..and believe it or not still having fun...until today!Love the crafting..spend hours gathering material...loved getting all the Dawning gear-gave me motivation. My Guild-best players out there!!-would do anything to help a player!! But i log on today and see they messed with the Soilder class...Again. Before this patch i was always tracking my damage progress by watching my Crits and swings. I remember being at a Lvl 30 and getting excited because i got a 350 Crit...or trying out different weapons to see how much damage i could do..Finally got all the dawning (Morning)Gear for my Soilder...watched my crtis and swings go up with every new piece....it was fUN. Was nothing to get 750-1000 Crit and 400-500 swings with my dawning gear and wielding 2 dawning axes ....Before the patch..
Now...i have this lovely Lvl 50 soilder...in full dawning gear..with 2 dawning axes....with an average swing of 100-200...and a crit of 400-450??????? WOW...im back to fighting like a lvl 30...I need a full time healer to walk around with me now just to play the game on account the lvl 50's have anywhere from 2000-6000 HP...THANKS for taking the FUN away!!
I think im prettty much done with the game now...no point in playing when you want to mess with a character that bad...its just not fun. To spend Hours and Hours a day playing and growing your character...and have it taken away like that.....thats worse than any character wipe.

[DustinL]

Ya know. I have to agree. After playing for a while. The Epicenter change aside. Which I am not thinking is a problem. I just feel now that I am much less effective in solo play. My damage went down a bit.

[Radium]

Ouch, that is horrible.

Part of the appeal was the easy game play of Alganon. Losing that does hurt.

[Wraithblade]

Spur, on 29 January 2010 - 07:09 PM, said:

Ok....so im on the Hokk server..and yes it is a ghost town. Suppost to be playing this "massive"online game...hard to do with the Whopping 3-6 players online. Been playing just about daily now since the start..and believe it or not still having fun...until today!Love the crafting..spend hours gathering material...loved getting all the Dawning gear-gave me motivation. My Guild-best players out there!!-would do anything to help a player!! But i log on today and see they messed with the Soilder class...Again. Before this patch i was always tracking my damage progress by watching my Crits and swings. I remember being at a Lvl 30 and getting excited because i got a 350 Crit...or trying out different weapons to see how much damage i could do..Finally got all the dawning (Morning)Gear for my Soilder...watched my crtis and swings go up with every new piece....it was fUN. Was nothing to get 750-1000 Crit and 400-500 swings with my dawning gear and wielding 2 dawning axes ....Before the patch..
Now...i have this lovely Lvl 50 soilder...in full dawning gear..with 2 dawning axes....with an average swing of 100-200...and a crit of 400-450??????? WOW...im back to fighting like a lvl 30...I need a full time healer to walk around with me now just to play the game on account the lvl 50's have anywhere from 2000-6000 HP...THANKS for taking the FUN away!!
I think im prettty much done with the game now...no point in playing when you want to mess with a character that bad...its just not fun. To spend Hours and Hours a day playing and growing your character...and have it taken away like that.....thats worse than any character wipe.

Sad to say, I also have a level 50 soldier, and not only did our dps go down, but they broke rush as well. Now you go charging past the target, finally stopping well beyond it, and get error messages about facing the target. Not much to do these days, and I lack any real interest in leveling an alt. Tried farming level 50's for gear, only to discover that they only drop level 45 greens at best. Though some level 50's(with 60,000 health) are said to drop blue and purple level 45, but you need a group for those. Good luck finding a group with so few people playing. Class "balancing" is nothing new, but doing it with such a heavy hand, when so few people play the game already, doesn't make sense.

[Chyra]

Wraithblade, on 01 February 2010 - 02:53 PM, said:

Class "balancing" is nothing new, but doing it with such a heavy hand, when so few people play the game already, doesn't make sense.

This is exactly what I've been thinking and my husband and I have been discussing over the past few weeks. Keeping the folks you have and giving them more things to do rather than take away from them would seem to make more sense.

With nothing else to do at 50, I also was trying to farm mobs for at least some boots since none are on the Dawning merchant. But the nerf without any gain anywhere in exchange really took the last bit of fun from the soldier.

[Alysandir]

Chyra and Wraithblade have touched on a really good point. With the dearth of questing content staring me in the face now that I've turned 40+, my primary mechanism for both leveling and *playing the game* is grinding. So of all the things you could focus on for development attention, why make class balance a priority? There's barely any group content, aside from a few world bosses. Let those of us that are sticking it out through the soft launch be a little overpowered - where's the harm? Especially knowing that some classes' DPS isn't where you'd like it to be.

Bottom line, if you're asking us to grind while we patiently wait for more content to be implemented, at least make it easier and less frustrating to do.

-Alys

[Mhantra]

Hah, while I think these points are quite valid, I find it ironic.

In my expereince, once people hit level 50, then they REALLY don't have anything to do, and seem to disappear. So the faster you get there, the faster you will find epic boredom.

[Wraithblade]

Mhantra, on 02 February 2010 - 09:25 AM, said:

Hah, while I think these points are quite valid, I find it ironic.

In my expereince, once people hit level 50, then they REALLY don't have anything to do, and seem to disappear. So the faster you get there, the faster you will find epic boredom.

Well, that all depends on your definition of "faster". I wasn't in any big rush to get to 50. Lord knows I'm spending most of my free time(such as it is) gearing up my level 80 warrior in WoW. The new random dungeon system is VERY well done. I've been in more instances in the last three weeks, than I've been in to in literally years. I know the people at QOL are really trying, and that much of this needs to be learned on the job. But given the competitive nature of the MMO market these days, one can only make a certain number of mistakes/poor decisions before reality hits home in a really harsh fashion. Ryzom and Horizons(Now Istaria) are examples of that.

[Eldaran]

Alganon was really fun when I first started playing it because there were a bunch of other people in the same boat and we were all trying to enjoy what little content there is. Now though, I can feel the discouragement sweeping through the masses. There are less and less people online when I log on. I'm finding myself less and less compelled to keep leveling. I really just don't want to keep sinking time into a game that may not be around in another few months. I really want to see that we have something to work toward before I keep grinding away at this. I'm at level 34 on my Healer and finding it very difficult to find quests that can hold me over and finding good camps to grind at this level seems to also be a very tedious job. Either the mobs have too much hp to make it worth grinding or they don't give enough xp but are easier to kill. I don't mind grinding, as I've played games such as Ragnarok Online, and the Lineage franchise, but what am I grinding toward?

I've been a strong Alganon supporter since I stumbled upon this game, but it's getting harder for me to keep my attention here. I will keep following the game and playing when I feel like it, but I'm hoping Alganon can get the shot in the arm that it needs really soon.

~Eld

[Tork]

While we are always striving to provide enough content to maintain the communities interest it is understandable that many will reach the end of the content currently present in the game or reach spots where the content is more sparse.

The addition of content is something every MMO that is heavily PVE oriented has to wrestle with.

Content that is repeatable such as Instances or PVP tends to provide more "bang for the buck" so to speak in relation to time it takes to create vs. time players can get enjoyment out of it.

My advice for players who are running out of "things to do" would be to enjoy what you like in the game as it currently stands but also keep an eye out for what is coming in the future.

I know I've said it many times but Alganon is a game we build in such as way that the world will be growing all the time.

That said we are also building a relationship with all of you that I hope goes beyond just the current state of the game. The current state of the game will always be a moving target. Sometimes your class will feel like gods and other times like you are hitting the mob with a wet noodle. That is one of the major differences between MMORPGs and other games. MMORPGs are living breathing games.

Long story short: If you are feeling that you've done all you can do in the game then go ahead and take a break. We are not a jealous game. We know there are many things continuously vying for your time and energy. We're grateful for all the time you spend with us.

[Mhantra]

I do agree with both of you. I have seen the same mass exodus and discouragement sweep the masses as well.

While leveling slower could have kept people around longer, it wouldn't have necessarily meant a better game.

While the dungeons will be important, my main issue has been lack of mobs tough enough to NEED a group, or at least a duo or trio. WHen your only challenge as a trio, while leveling up, is to find the best way to pull AOE mobs and use your one or two abilities to finish off the 25-pull, things are bound to get a bit monotonous.

Casting/ranged mobs, some elites (with elite experience), big camps with many adds such would have helped while leveling. A lot.

Edit: Heh, this was supposed to be above Tork's nice post.

This post has been edited by Mhantra: 02 February 2010 - 11:02 AM

[Spur]

Tork, on 02 February 2010 - 11:48 AM, said:

While we are always striving to provide enough content to maintain the communities interest it is understandable that many will reach the end of the content currently present in the game or reach spots where the content is more sparse.

The addition of content is something every MMO that is heavily PVE oriented has to wrestle with.

Content that is repeatable such as Instances or PVP tends to provide more "bang for the buck" so to speak in relation to time it takes to create vs. time players can get enjoyment out of it.

My advice for players who are running out of "things to do" would be to enjoy what you like in the game as it currently stands but also keep an eye out for what is coming in the future.

I know I've said it many times but Alganon is a game we build in such as way that the world will be growing all the time.

That said we are also building a relationship with all of you that I hope goes beyond just the current state of the game. The current state of the game will always be a moving target. Sometimes your class will feel like gods and other times like you are hitting the mob with a wet noodle. That is one of the major differences between MMORPGs and other games. MMORPGs are living breathing games.

Long story short: If you are feeling that you've done all you can do in the game then go ahead and take a break. We are not a jealous game. We know there are many things continuously vying for your time and energy. We're grateful for all the time you spend with us.

Ok just for the record…as far as the game content…I've been ok with that. Guess I really didn't have the "grinding" problem. I love the crafting. Spent hours crafting stuff for friends, and gold...so the Lvl's just came naturally. Guess it's all in the way you look at it. I wasn't out "grinding" to Lvl....I was out making a staff for a guild mate...or some coin to thicken my pouch...lol. Not saying the game content can't be improved….I see this game has pets and to my knowledge they don't do anything. Remember playing this one game-Dungeon Siege II-and they had pets in that game too...only you had to buy them...and feed the pets drops and stuff...and that determined how your pet would turn out as an adult(the pet kindda Lvled with you). The pet also helped you in battle, or would heal you...just depended on what kindda pet you bought. I personally think something like this would be great in Alganon...why?...Because then a player isn't out "grinding"...there out working for something they want. They can spend months in search of that "perfect" pet...and it's Fun...and you get a Reward at the end! I went out and crafted a bunch to get the 750 gold mount…Didn't mind it at all while I was doing it...Finally got the 750 gold and went to buy it..wondering what it would do…and boy was I ever disappointed to find out it did NOTHING( same as the 75 mount)!!! Just looked different. Same thing with the Dawning mount. Pretty soon word starts to spread...and nobody wants to get them…why…because they do nothing!! Now if the 750 mount would have bumped up Attack power or raise your defense (some kind of reward at the end)...just think of all the people that would Happily be out getting them…and not Grinding...Heck id be out working for the 8000 mount as we speak..just to see what it would do.

I also understand the need to Balance out the classes…but why so harsh? 25% decrease and an 8 sec delay on the epicenter. Think sometimes you don't realize when you try and "balance" the classes….your also changing the games Appeal.(at least for me). I was happy with the soldier class (even if it only had 1 strong action)...it met my criteria. Now …I'm just waiting for the next new piece of Armor to come out for the Soldier…..A pretty Pink dress and Tiara (Yes…it's really that bad for me..). Just feel with the Population being as it is...some kind of fun game content should be a little more important than class balance... something to keep the players that are here coming back daily ( even if they are at Lvl 50). Need some Self-earned rewards in the game…not a class balance that sets me off like an H-bomb.

[Wraithblade]

Spur, on 02 February 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

Ok just for the record…as far as the game content…I've been ok with that. Guess I really didn't have the "grinding" problem. I love the crafting. Spent hours crafting stuff for friends, and gold...so the Lvl's just came naturally. Guess it's all in the way you look at it. I wasn't out "grinding" to Lvl....I was out making a staff for a guild mate...or some coin to thicken my pouch...lol. Not saying the game content can't be improved….I see this game has pets and to my knowledge they don't do anything. Remember playing this one game-Dungeon Siege II-and they had pets in that game too...only you had to buy them...and feed the pets drops and stuff...and that determined how your pet would turn out as an adult(the pet kindda Lvled with you). The pet also helped you in battle, or would heal you...just depended on what kindda pet you bought. I personally think something like this would be great in Alganon...why?...Because then a player isn't out "grinding"...there out working for something they want. They can spend months in search of that "perfect" pet...and it's Fun...and you get a Reward at the end! I went out and crafted a bunch to get the 750 gold mount…Didn't mind it at all while I was doing it...Finally got the 750 gold and went to buy it..wondering what it would do…and boy was I ever disappointed to find out it did NOTHING( same as the 75 mount)!!! Just looked different. Same thing with the Dawning mount. Pretty soon word starts to spread...and nobody wants to get them…why…because they do nothing!! Now if the 750 mount would have bumped up Attack power or raise your defense (some kind of reward at the end)...just think of all the people that would Happily be out getting them…and not Grinding...Heck id be out working for the 8000 mount as we speak..just to see what it would do.

I also understand the need to Balance out the classes…but why so harsh? 25% decrease and an 8 sec delay on the epicenter. Think sometimes you don't realize when you try and "balance" the classes….your also changing the games Appeal.(at least for me). I was happy with the soldier class (even if it only had 1 strong action)...it met my criteria. Now …I'm just waiting for the next new piece of Armor to come out for the Soldier…..A pretty Pink dress and Tiara (Yes…it's really that bad for me..). Just feel with the Population being as it is...some kind of fun game content should be a little more important than class balance... something to keep the players that are here coming back daily ( even if they are at Lvl 50). Need some Self-earned rewards in the game…not a class balance that sets me off like an H-bomb.

Good points. Why in the world QOL(with very limited staff) would have ANYONE working on class "balance" at this point is quite beyond me. That time and talent would be MUCH better applied to all of the other much more pressing issues they have on their plate. There will be plenty of time after those major issues are addressed to start playing class "balance" games. PvP isn't even in the game yet, so its not as if anyone is really howling about some class or another being Over Powered.

I'd hate to see QOL go the same route that Blizzard has for more than 5 years now. I swear, they must have a wall in their HQ covered with the classes and their abilities, and every patch, someone stands with their back to the wall and throws a handful of darts over their shoulder(without looking)... And thats the classes and abilities that get "balanced" for that patch... ^^

One simple addition would make a lot of difference. That being that there is a chance(small but a chance) of a blue or purple world drop with mobs. As it currently stands, there is little reason for most of us to spend additional time here at this point. Group mobs require groups... Good luck finding a group with the small number of people currently playing.

[Valiant]

Tork, on 02 February 2010 - 12:48 PM, said:

Long story short: If you are feeling that you've done all you can do in the game then go ahead and take a break. We are not a jealous game. We know there are many things continuously vying for your time and energy. We're grateful for all the time you spend with us.

And how are those of us that spent almost $200,

yes that's $200, on QOL's (empty)promises, supposed to just take a break? Please explain to me how that is possible when not even a few days after I pre ordered I was flat out denied a refund. We can't take a break, we were screwed.

So am I to just walk away and let my money go to waste? Or should I press for QOL to live up to their promises made to us so that we would pre order in the first place? You see it might be easy for QOL to say "hey take a break it's ok, WE ALREADY HAVE YOUR MONEY SUCKERS!", but you can bet that I will be here TRYING to get my money's worth. I dont have a choice, QOL made that choice for me.

So instead of cutting the price in half AFTER pre orders, unstable clients, unstable servers, bugs x1000's, no content, no quests for certain level, etc.. QOL should be putting those "stolen" subs to much better use, because I plan to use every God damn cent I was forced to pay.

Val

[Eldaran]

We are in the downward spiral. 2nd month blues is hitting hard. QOL needs to course correct NOW or they will lose everyone.

[Alysandir]

Eldaran, on 03 February 2010 - 09:23 AM, said:

We are in the downward spiral. 2nd month blues is hitting hard. QOL needs to course correct NOW or they will lose everyone.

I know this will sound extremely negative (it's not intended to be), but it probably doesn't matter if they lose everyone. Right now, we're in a soft launch, which presupposes that there will be a hard launch at some point, during which they will make a massive marketing push and really dangle carrots to get people to play. We're essentially beta testers who have paid for the privilege of beta testing. As Valiant observed, some of us have already committed for an extended period of time, so there is little to no reason to worry about pleasing us in the short term; business sense says that if they can dramatically improve their product by the time we are up for renewal, we'll stay - and if we leave, it's only a few subscribers.

That's the cost of being an early adopter of a technology: you frequently overpay for a shoddy user experience in exchange for being the first to experience something new. That's true for pretty much every technology, from toasters to Toyotas. So you have to adopt an early adopter mindset that this is how things are.

Having said that, I still think it's foolish to prioritize class balance when there are other glaring areas needing attention, but most likely this was an easy "fix" in terms of man-hours done by the class dev (meaning he's likely not able to transition to say, models or content development easily).

-Alys

[Wraithblade]

Valiant, on 03 February 2010 - 07:08 AM, said:

And how are those of us that spent almost $200,

yes that's $200, on QOL's (empty)promises, supposed to just take a break? Please explain to me how that is possible when not even a few days after I pre ordered I was flat out denied a refund. We can't take a break, we were screwed.

So am I to just walk away and let my money go to waste? Or should I press for QOL to live up to their promises made to us so that we would pre order in the first place? You see it might be easy for QOL to say "hey take a break it's ok, WE ALREADY HAVE YOUR MONEY SUCKERS!", but you can bet that I will be here TRYING to get my money's worth. I dont have a choice, QOL made that choice for me.

So instead of cutting the price in half AFTER pre orders, unstable clients, unstable servers, bugs x1000's, no content, no quests for certain level, etc.. QOL should be putting those "stolen" subs to much better use, because I plan to use every God damn cent I was forced to pay.

Val

Val, I've never once received that impression. QOL has always struck me as being VERY passionate about their game, and doing the very best they can. I suspect that they are simply overwhelmed by all of the complex problems involved. But they do seem to be making progress. Granted they have made some bad decisions, but thats to be expected given the learning curve involved.

But I totally disagree that anyone *forced* you to do anything, pre order, subscription wise. That was your own choice. I'm just hoping that they can get ahead of the rising tide, and get things running before human nature takes its course.

[Valiant]

Wraithblade, on 03 February 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

Val, I've never once received that impression. QOL has always struck me as being VERY passionate about their game, and doing the very best they can. I suspect that they are simply overwhelmed by all of the complex problems involved. But they do seem to be making progress. Granted they have made some bad decisions, but thats to be expected given the learning curve involved.

I agree with you in the sense that they seem to be doing the best they can and are totally overwhelmed.

Are they making progress? Very little. Every patch is "one step forward, three steps back". They fix one thing but break many others or some things are still not fixed for many, many months. Soldiers, Rangers, etc.. I dont need to go into it, you all know about it by now.

Wraithblade, on 03 February 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

But I totally disagree that anyone *forced* you to do anything, pre order, subscription wise. That was your own choice. I'm just hoping that they can get ahead of the rising tide, and get things running before human nature takes its course.

How many games did you buy, then go back to the store and return? I have returned HUNDREDS. It is my right as a consumer to be able to return items if I am not satisfied. But in my case it did not even come down to that. I had personal issues that suddenly came up, without getting into detail there were two deaths in my family. One right after the other and unexpected. This was just after I pre ordered. I dont have a crystal ball. But I did ask for a refund due to personal issues and they flat out refused. That is being *FORCED* to subscribe, period. There is no reason they could not have done a refund, other than pure greed.

Val

[c1oudrs]

Alysandir, on 02 February 2010 - 08:11 AM, said:

So of all the things you could focus on for development attention, why make class balance a priority? . . . Let those of us that are sticking it out through the soft launch be a little overpowered - where's the harm?

I saw this particular balance coming for awhile ever since someone started bragging in the forums about taking mobs out with one epicenter.

However, i agree that the priorities need to be 1) doing those things to get new subscribers. 2) doing those things to keep old subscribers so that the company can make money and so that we have a fun game to play. Since this balance does neither of these things (if anything it has the opposite affect) then it is a 'proceed with caution' kind of thing.

It was particularly unfortunate that rush was broken in the same patch with an animation that no one requested. As far as the breaking, ok. Everyone makes mistakes. But the priority of the rush animation was another addition to the last patch that in my opinion did not meet the requirements of priority--to us players it smacks of piddling around--and the developers time is too valuable to be piddling around with low priority stuff even as the game dies.

Now I can understand the importance of game balance even if I'm not an expert in programming or in MMO games. Perhaps this had to happen from a programming/game balance viewpoint. Our developers are experts.

But I wanted to underline what Alys seemed to say between the lines--the timing was really bad. Potentially unpopular changes might be better received or overlooked after the new content is introduced. Its not enough to have a fun game--there needs to be players to play it.

[Nevena]

Background on my perspective:

I pre-ordered knowing the state the game was in, and also knowing that it is on a long-tail development plan. If I could have at the time, I would have purchased some of the pre-paid pre-order, because I love the game and I truly appreciate all the small independent house has accomplished. I put my limited entertainment time and money to indie outfits as much as possible. And I'm a patient person.

Knowing that there's a level limit and also a finite number of quests, I've been rationing out the ones I hadn't done in beta (and some that I did and loved) to do later after I get my main to 50 and thus all the Dawning gear. There's still a lot of content I haven't done yet, and have left to look forward to. At the same time, I've watched people push push push grinding through the content as quickly as possible, then are burned out and bored.

So about class balancing -- now is actually a pretty good time to keep tweaking the class balancing, in my opinion. There should be much care and caution in "fun-killing" level of changes, but if game mechanics are allowing for explosive levelling, what good does that do us? Let us jam on up to 50 so there's nothing left to do?

I figure that every class should have equal ability to solo and contribute to groups, just using different methods and playstyles. That's tough to pull off I know, but it's my ideal especially in a low-pop game. But things like Epicenter were ungodly, and we knew it...

Tork, on 02 February 2010 - 12:48 PM, said:

That said we are also building a relationship with all of you that I hope goes beyond just the current state of the game.

[...]

Long story short: If you are feeling that you've done all you can do in the game then go ahead and take a break. We are not a jealous game. We know there are many things continuously vying for your time and energy. We're grateful for all the time you spend with us.

Anyway, I think that quote is well-said. I know a few people who have pushed through and need a break, and I really understand that as a player. I always felt this was a great secondary game (my best friends still drag me into City of Heroes when they can), and pairs real nicely into my game time.

So I'm in no rush. I'm enjoying the ride, and the company on the trip.