27 replies to this topic

[Mhantra]

I am pretty excited about the healer class in this game, though I was hoping for a little melee ability option.

I have been interested in the meleeing healers for years, all the way from EQ1 (though the melee of a shaman was pretty weak overall) through the friar in DAoC and the Shaman and Disciple in Vanguard (now there are a couple well-done healer-melee classes, the bear totem shaman and the disciple).

Checking out the class page, this seems a bit more like a priest, which is entirely fair. However, there are two potential melee-potential classes. The warden and the prophet.

Anyone heard anything about these classes? It seems that right now it is 100% speculation.


edit: oops, guess this should have been in the classes section. Feel free to move it, mods

[Jergis]

-Yep, classes section makes more sense. And yep, pure speculation at this point.

Truly, honestly, 100% i-ain't-kidding-ya you can make a melee healer in Alganon. It may not be the absolute-bestest at melee, but you can do it. Having the ability to study skills that will help in melee such as parry, dodge, weapon skills, etc will make the healer adequate in melee AND the ability to cast makes this gish formidable. What you may lack in pure offensive power you supplement with the Deathwalk (if you choose that path) or your healing spells to keep you going (if you choose that path) or perhaps curses or charms to buff/debuff you into a victory. A bit slower? Perhaps. But also more tactical.

In the EQ you mentioned you could make a melee shaman and do well enough, same as a melee cleric. Were they the best at those things? No, but they had their magic to back them up. I say go for it, good luck, and perhaps you will end up knowing yoru class better than anyone, exploring the nooks and crannies of specializations and skills most healers will ignore.

Good journey to you.

Jergis

[Drakynn]

I totally understand wanting the option of melee-ing or even ranged dps-ing as a healer coz let's face it...it's hard to make pure healing attrative to most people,especially for group/large group play....watching bars and spamming heals doesn't make for the most exciting view of a game or game mechanics.Being able to do something else whilst still healing would alleviate that some but cna be tricky to balance.It'll be interesting to see how it's handle din Alganon.

[Mhantra]

-Yep, classes section makes more sense. And yep, pure speculation at this point.

Truly, honestly, 100% i-ain't-kidding-ya you can make a melee healer in Alganon. It may not be the absolute-bestest at melee, but you can do it. Having the ability to study skills that will help in melee such as parry, dodge, weapon skills, etc will make the healer adequate in melee AND the ability to cast makes this gish formidable. What you may lack in pure offensive power you supplement with the Deathwalk (if you choose that path) or your healing spells to keep you going (if you choose that path) or perhaps curses or charms to buff/debuff you into a victory. A bit slower? Perhaps. But also more tactical.


Jergis

Now you see, if this is doable in this game, actually being able to choose to add and subtract things that may not be exactly core-based skills, and have it at least work (I am not a min-maxer), then this is the game for me. I love building characters, and I frequently take paths less traveled.

For example, I went bear totem in shaman, which is the melee variant. Yet, at the same time, I raised the healing and casting attribute points instead of adding strength. I do this because the bear form itself really raises melee variability, and now, my heals and DoTs do maximum damage. This is a bit unconventional, but it has really worked out because I can still melee and off-tank, but am a very goood healer plus spell damage.

If a game ever wants me for life, it will have a deep and flexible class system. I am happy just raising various classes up to max leve, then starting with a new one and doing it again.

[Grymmoire]

Prior the nerf to DAoC's smite clerics, it was a very good example of a well-balanced melee-healer. One could do a decent amount of damage, not great, but good and more defensive in nature, that augmented the smite damage.

Most games seem to use the approach to healers of offering a pure healer type; combo healer-melee; and melee with some minor healing on longer timers or way less power. In those games, balance is achieved through forsaking power in one talent for power in an other, or just balancing the two as a truer hybrid.

Alganon seems to offer a different approach but will probably achieve the same results utilizing dual roles and the study system to allow more fine tuning and balance of skills. Additionally, they seem to be striving to allow most classes an election of choosing to serve a function in the primary roles of other classes, wherein forming groups will not be as painful and time consuming as experienced in other MMO's. This has the side effect of diversified tactical approaches in group play too.

Hopefully, you have found your new home!!!

*Offers Mhantra a mug of freshly brewed Frognar Eye Fizzie; yum, this batch tastes like Chai tea.*

[Berek]

Post has been moved .

[melanieshaman]

Yes.. i would love a melee healer... ala DoK and Warrior Priest in WAR... melee enhances thier ability to heal... obviously that may not work for the priest but one of the others maybe... a hybrid/melee healer?

[Drox]

I always thought the perfect definition of such a healer would be a Templar.

A cleric that uses sword and shield. Melee enhances their ability to heal etc... however no one has ever implemented it =(.

[Syndic]

I think the problem you come across with the healer being some sort of melee class is the fine line you walk between being a melee healer and Paladin. Essentially I view the Paladin as the melee healer but I think a Templar would be another fitting name for this sort of role. When you use the word Priest or Cleric I view a more studious type character that would find other means to do hurt to their enemies. So as not to cross the line between a Mage and a Priest the Priest type characters would use more spirit/life/nature type of magic and the Mages would be elemental. This does seem to be quite the common theme in many games.

I guess many can agree that it can be boring at times being the healer and just watching those bars, not only that but soloing can be a slow and painful process. On the other hand though you have yourself a very highly desirable class in the game and to add too much DPS or utility to the class not only overpowers the healer class but weakens all others. If a healer can DPS as well as a Mage or Ranger even why not have the assurance of another healer around, so the ability for a healer to damage needs to not take from the role of other classes.

I was almost thinking along a sliding scale, as the healer gathers more people around them the stronger their healing becomes but the weaker their ability to deal damage. So a solo healer would have sufficient damage to not make questing a labourous chore but stacking a group with 5 healers and a tank is not an option either.

[Grymmoire]

Although I know there are players that take great pride in keeping groups alive via staring at health bars and sometimes wearing their fingers to nubs, "casting" heal after heal, frantically switching targets, that game healer system is too one dimensional imo. Guilds and some couples benefit from this system, as both then have dedicated healers that allow the rest of the group or other in the couple's situation, to play in any manner they choose, whether with sound tactics or reckless abandon, hnowing their healer is there and expecting to be kept alive. PUGs, on the other hand, have less patience and tolerance for any healer that does not fit the pure healer role that has been the bane of MMO's.

What I have often wondered, is why every class in an MMO could not be endowed with a either several heals that they choose to use and if they are reckless in play or use them inappropriately, their deaths are their own fault. Or employ a sliding scaled healing ability wherein each class has the ability to heal related to their overall class hp's and endurance.

Either of these systems would shift the responsibility to keep, one's self alive an perhaps put more tactical play back into games. Thankfully, Alganon's system is atypical of other MMO's and therefore, healers here will have alternatives to just being the typical health bot.

[Mhantra]

Sometimes I think it is the possibility of massive overpoweredness (how do you like that word) that makes it tough to make a good healer class.

Given that healing is so powerful in terms of survival, and want to add a melee component, what do you give up in the meantime? Spell damage? Make it so you can't heal that well while doing that melee damage (a stance, perhaps?)? Armor class and defensive skills? Range abilities?

It takes a very creative group of devs to find ways to mitigate the power of the healer in fun and interactive ways.

Given what I have read about this game, I definitely look forward to trying it out. I was actually glad to hear they switched to a level-based instead of purely skill based system, but at the same time, I beleive that a class should still have a ton of options to choose from in terms of skills. Even if they are ones you riase and lower by using them.

I am stoked to try this game, and am hoping that the class system is deep and the combat strategic. If I have both of those things, then I will be happy for a long time.

[Diageous]

The magus, warden, and prophet seem to be magic-type classes. The healer will be most likely somewhat melee-capable along with the melee soldier. The ranger will be a ranged character. In other words, it seems that melee is at a huge disadvantage so far. Hopefully, dual roles will help with this.

[Grymmoire]

The magus, warden, and prophet seem to be magic-type classes. The healer will be most likely somewhat melee-capable along with the melee soldier. The ranger will be a ranged character. In other words, it seems that melee is at a huge disadvantage so far. Hopefully, dual roles will help with this.

Diageous, just curious. In what manner do you see melee classes at a disadvantage? Do you mean melee appears to be at a disadvantage overall or with regard to PvP?

[Drakynn]

Diageous, just curious. In what manner do you see melee classes at a disadvantage? Do you mean melee appears to be at a disadvantage overall or with regard to PvP?

I favor melee classes heavily and I will say that melee is usually at a disadvantage in these games PvP-wise.Most games give the CC advantage to ranged so melee usually end up kited to death because they cannot do damage at range.There are a few isolated exceptions like when a WoW rogue gets the drop on you though even that has been all but neutralised since The Burning crusade,or tanks in Warhammer have enough CC tools to be competitive,but that game has far too much AoE and CC at the moment for true Melee DPS classes to be really effective in PvP.It'll be interesting to see how QoL addresses the ranged/melee balance and if they are more successful than past MMORPG's PvP.

[Diageous]

Diageous, just curious. In what manner do you see melee classes at a disadvantage? Do you mean melee appears to be at a disadvantage overall or with regard to PvP?

Mages and rangers will be able to attack over a distance, scoring extra hits before the meleers can reach them. Now, pardon me, but I haven't ever played WoW so I wouldn't know if theres something that balances this out. As for non-PvP circumstances, training and killing monsters should end up being about equal.

[Grymmoire]

Imo, and regarding PvP play only, it boils down to whether a game is designed as a "rock, scissors, paper" game where each has it's own specific nemesis and strength\weakness against the opposing class, or it is designed with melee having substantially more hp's, endurance etc. and perhaps even an attack burst mode (quick run) to close on a ranged class fast to engage and slow them with the typical "hamstring" hit.

A second more pertinant question, imo, is how much CC is given to a ranged class vs a melee class, thus impacting the melee to an extent they are at a severe disadvantage. That coupled with what is the output of damage from ranged. If the latter is balanced correctly, it would allow melee time to close before significant damage is done to them.

I leave stealthing classes out of the above due to the unique need to address their damage on openers post-stealth against ranged, which is always a subject of hot debate in all MMO games I have played.

Game play balance is what Beta testing should reveal. It is also why balancing for PvE vs PvP should be independently addressed, but in most MMO's have been lumped together, with constant adjustments to attacks, buffs, skills etc. done to try to balance out play post-release, causing exactly what you describe...mostly melee at a disadvantage...or if over balanced, melee at an advantage. Then the see-sawing begins anew.

[Tork]

Moved to class specific section.

[irongamer]

I enjoyed the DoK and Warrior Priest classes in WAR as melee type healers, the bear shaman in AoC was pretty good as well. The Archmage in WAR was also fairly nice as it was a mix of ranged DPS that empowered your heals.

The problem with healing in a lot of MMO's is how the developers construct the group combat system. Most combat systems require a healer to throw heals almost constantly or at least preemptively start a long casting heal (movement interrupting it of course) so it lands at the correct time. This type of system basically reduces a healers game to watching little red bars move up and down.

Huge splash damage or AoE damage by a boss, usually delivered in abundance, make it difficult to have a melee healer standing up front with the tank.

I'd love to seen a more interactive healing role where the healer is looking at the environment more or working up charges in other ways and then tossing a heal when needed, rather then the spam healing that is so prevalent these days.

-Edit

In truth I don't expect much different from the norm. The past 10+ years it feels I have been playing the same mmorpg with slight variations.

I miss the days of Warcraft: Orcs and Humans, Diablo 1, Crusader: No Remorse, X-Com, Oni and many others that were ground breaking, genre changing or even new genre creating releases.

Edited by irongamer, 26 September 2009 - 03:45 PM.

[Brett]

The essence of the healer in game is casting, plain and simple. They have wands that you can do ranged damage and within melee range damage as well.

The staves and maces healers use can dish out moderate damage but that is not their forte. That said though, I find myself using my staff towards the end of the fight to finish em up.

There is a new spell that added (think the name is something like embrace of wrath) and what it does is when you cast it on a mob, it makes it so when the mob is struck by anyone melee, it adds wrath magic damage to the strike.

My typical rotation is heavy ranged DD (think the name is Word of Hatred (3 sec cast, 10 sec cooldown), Touch of Harming (12 sec DOT), Word of Harming (moderate ranged DD, 2 sec cast, no cooldown) and then Embrace of Wrath (see above) and staff it the last little bit left.

[Mhantra]

Wow, lol.

This thread is a relic. I started this before I was ever even in Beta =D