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I guess crafting will continue to suck *sigh*


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#1 Vanpry

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 09:23 AM

http://www.alganon.c...p?showtopic=735

To summarize this wall of text. I posed the question how depend crafting will be on adventuring. The below answer says crafting will be independent and then states mats will have to be acquired by adventures. You can't have it both ways. It is either UO style or every crapfest since.

So it sounds like Alganon will just mimic every crappy crafting system out there. I hope I am wrong I guess we will see.

"Q. How dependent will crafting be on adventuring and combat, specifically on advancement?

A. As a general rule we try to keep crafting and adventuring separate on an individual level, but interdependent on a massive level. What do I mean by that? If you tunnel vision down to one character, the two are practically unrelated. You don't have to adventure in order to succeed as a crafter, nor do you have to craft to succeed as an adventurer. You can choose to do both, but you don't have to. However, if you step back far enough that you can see the entire player base as one unit, then it becomes very interdependent. Someone has to be out there adventuring to provide mats for the crafters. Someone also has to be out there crafting because crafted items will need to be purchased in order to maximize your success as an adventurer."

At first they may seem to contradict one another, and if this were a single player game, they very well would - but with the consignment system, you never have to be the "somebody" in that statement.

If you need the scales of a Trelk to complete the armor set you are making, you don't have to go kill a Trelk, or fight your way through the wartorn hills of Denub Juxx. You can use the consignment system to send some "sword-monkey" out to get the hide for you. But don't expect to make armor as fine as a Trelk-scale cloak without a few Trelk dieing in the process.

Somebody has to go kill them - but it doesn't have to be you. Even if you're the kind of guy who, when face-to-face with an assassin, you spend more time admiring the craftsmanship of his blade than dodging it, you can still max out your crafting skills.

On the other side, you can't expect to find Trelk-scale quality armor in the stomach of a Greenvale cow. If you want goods of that quality, you're going to want to use the very same consignment house to get some "anvil jockey" to make it for you. Somebody has to spend hours slaving over a hot forge in order to be skilled enough to create armor of that quality - but it doesn't have to be you.

Even if the only things you ever hit with a blacksmith's hammer are sprog skulls, you can still get the best crafted armor in the game.


-Vanpry, i think the way this is handled in non-UO games works well enough. That is, you as a crafter have access to materials for crafting in towns (say, from vendors) that will carry your skill into all tiers of mastery. But to get the materials to craft the absolute-bestest gear, you have to actually leave the house to get those materials, otherwise there is no challenge. Leather isn't free, after all, and *some* work has to be done to get the materials. If you do not want to adventure at all that's fine, and you can skill up entirely based on mats found in towns, but some effort somewhere has to be put into acquiring the materials for the strongest combinations for the best gear.

Perhaps a more specific example from you on exactly *how* you expected to get access to the best material for the best items to be crafted is in order to increase understanding of your perspective here. I wouldn't worry about cash, i know in all games i've played many players get the mats and ask around for crafters to combine them for them. Your skill will most certainly be marketable. And i would also recommend we take the discussion elsewhere to not clog the Roundtable question posts.
Jergis


Jergis

That is not how crafting works in any mmo. You can not gain skill at all in any mmo unless you are high enough level to acquire the mats for yourself or buy them off AH which are ridiculously priced. I have no idea what mmo you are playing. It is absolutely reasonable that the best of the best would require mob drops that is not at all what I am saying. I simple want to be able to gain basic crafting skill by crafting basic item without being forced to keep my adventure level high enough or pay outrageous AH prices.

I also stated that there will of course be some crafting skills like leather working that would require some killing. But like every mmo has done since UO they create tier leather so to be able to gain skill in leather working you would have to kill progressively higher level mobs. Like some how leather off a level 50 cow is more special the leather off a level 1.

I am not expecting a strictly crafter to be able to craft the best of the best without purchasing the items or killing high end mobs. What I want is to be able to gain basic skill, from I would assume creating basis items, without having to kill progressive higher level mobs or purchase materials all the AH which has always been over priced.

#2 Dificeman

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 10:21 AM

You know some MMO's do have it so you can gain skills without going and killing? Vanguard just to name one has work orders you can do. The npc gives you the stuff to make said items you gain experience form doing it and then you gain more experience for turning in the ocmpleted work order. You can not however use to materials to make something else.

Relax a bit and let's see exactly how they plan to do it. I believe however that to make stuff to sell you are still going to have to get mats. But even so as stated you can make it known you have so high of a skill in whatever. Have folks that want stuff made gather the Mats or buy them. and then charge a small price for making whatever. You will make money and soon have enough to buy your own Mats to make stuff and sell at whatever price.

#3 DeLang

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 11:47 AM

It occurs to me that perhaps you'd prefer Crafting as well as "Resource Gathering" be separate from Adventuring.

From the description released on the Q&A #1, it does indeed seem that Crafting is separate from Adventuring. You can craft to maximum skill without ever Adventuring. However the Resource Gathering will be tied to both Crafting and Adventuring.

Resource Gathering brings me more joy when there is risk vs. reward. If there were no risk, then I wouldn't feel I was providing a service to the crafters I give the materials to, and the fun would be gone. However, risk can be induced without tying Adventure and Resource Gathering together. Perhaps a type of mini-game while resource gathering? Maybe crafter's quests which reward materials or programmable harvest bots or prayers to dieties to make it rain the material you need for 15 minutes?

Maybe they're going with the standard of linking Resource Gathering with Adventuring since many people are used to it and find it appealing. It could be that developing an interesting alternative would suck resources away from other higher-profile goals.

I hear that it's not the game mechanic you prefer. Fortunately, the right guild of helpful, generous players ought to be able to keep all their crafters sated for materials.

#4 Jergis

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 12:04 PM

-Good points, DeLang, i was not catching the resource gathering angle as soon as i should have in this topic. And Vanpry, there are games out there that provide as i suggested, they just may not be ones you are familiar with Vanguard being one of the newer ones. Before level cap increases, you could accomplish this in Everquest as well (back in the day, as we like to say).

I do hope Alganon provides you what you seek in terms of crafting. If it helps any, i'll give ya half of whatever i come across in my adventuring free of charge!

Jergis, going back to work now

#5 Vanpry

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 12:58 PM

Ok fair enough but lets put the shoe on the other foot. Since crafters are going to be completely dependent on adventure/resource gathers then item destruction should be added so adventures have some dependence on crafters. Mobs shouldn't drop fully complete gear, npc should sell only cheap gear.

Being about to sell my wares brings me joy.

I will take you up on that offer Jergis.

#6 Jergis

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 01:33 PM

-I made that offer in all seriousness, Vanpry, and will honor it. And i'm willing to help anyone as best i can if they do not want to adventure and truly want to only craft in this or any other game.

When we hit live, make sure you let me know where to find ya.

On the point of complete gear drops, i would suggest exceptions to the general rule of no complete gear. A dragon's hoard, traditionally, would include magical pieces of armor that withstood the heat of the dragon's breath, whereas the flesh of the fool that entered the cave did not. Same with a sword of magical might, made from sterner stuff than the egotistical adventurer wielding it. Just a thought.

Jergis

#7 Vanpry

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 03:56 PM

It's not that I don't want to adventure. I split my time pretty equally, but I had hoped Alganon would be different from everything else out there and maybe it still will be in some aspects.

#8 Syndic

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 05:48 PM

I don't see any major problems with many of the games crafting out there. EQ2, Vanguard & Horizons are the 3 where I like the crafting in them although in different ways. All 3 of these though will let you get from 0 to max in a craft without ever having adventured. Also you could harvest your own resources in all those games, although with some risk at low levels.
Of course items of more than normal power required mob drops, but it all helped the economy move.
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#9 Mouglue

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 08:28 PM

Ok fair enough but lets put the shoe on the other foot. Since crafters are going to be completely dependent on adventure/resource gathers then item destruction should be added so adventures have some dependence on crafters. Mobs shouldn't drop fully complete gear, npc should sell only cheap gear.

Being about to sell my wares brings me joy.

I will take you up on that offer Jergis.


I could not agree more. Nothing would bring me more joy then seeing a game finaly make crafting worthwhile.

#10 Syndic

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 02:23 AM

I could not agree more. Nothing would bring me more joy then seeing a game finaly make crafting worthwhile.

Crafting has been worthwhile in every MMO I've played.
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#11 Chyra

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 06:03 AM

Crafting has been worthwhile in every MMO I've played.


I have to agree. At one point in SWG, crafting was all I did for months and I had a blast doing it. And it's been very worthwhile and enjoyable for me in both EQ2 and Horizons.
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#12 Vanpry

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 01:18 PM

Crafting has been worthwhile in every MMO I've played.

Worthwhile how? Coming from WoW for a couple years and LOTRO now just so you know where I'm coming from. I would agree that Horizons was rewarding and I have heard SWG was rewarding, but both those games were player driven economies.

Crafting from my perspective has become little more then a novelty a time and/or money sink mostly to get gear for alts or as a place holder until you get better gear from a drop. For the most part the challenge fits the rewards, next to no challenge next to no reward. I don’t count running around for hours hoping to beat someone to a node challenge.

This is my perspective broken down into pieces based on WoW and LOTRO crafting.

WoW:
Gathering – I absolutely hated WoWs gathering. Nodes, which is a stupid concept imho, were too far and few between and their re-spawn times were entirely too long. Mithril and thorium nodes were so bad a stack of mithril was going for over 10 G on the AH thorium was up over 20 if I remember correctly both of which were mid level crafting supplies and at that level you didn’t have that much gold to spare.

Crafting – Over all WoW’s crafting was pretty piss poor. From 1 to max level you occasionally wore crafted gear but for the most part quest rewards and drops were far better. There were the rare receipts that were good but they were pretty rare so you usually never saw them. Just trying to gain skill could be pretty damn annoying because you would hit these zones where the receipts required semi-rares. Which were god awful expensive on the AH and took so long for you to gather on your own. At max there were a few items that were worth crafting but if you could raid no need to craft at all.

LOTRO:
Gather – Gathering in LOTRO was a lot better. The spawn rate and locations were a lot better. I am still no fan of nodes but I didn’t want to smash my monitor.

Crafting – Overall LOTRO crafting isn’t bad. The crit option and guild hall make their crafted gear competitive with drops. But at max level this competitiveness pretty much disappears. Some of the crafted jewelry is still useful but armor all gets replaced with your radiance gear. The legendaries, which I like, seam to out class any of the crafted stuff (not a weapons smith).

Edit: The only thing that really bothers me about LOTRO crafting is they make you do quests which are designed for certain levels in order to go up in crafting tiers.


Really for the most part crafting is only worthwhile and rewarding if you are crafting consumables. Drops and quest rewards are usually better, if you can raid that is pretty much a guarantee.

Man being busy at work sucks, took me like 6 hour off and on to type this out.

#13 Syndic

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 05:33 PM

Since you have Horizons in your history I'll let that one alone for now.

In EQ2, you don't have the node problem you find in WoW, nodes are everywhere. The difference is that it takes more to get a "level" than it does in WoW since it uses an experience system as opposed to a skill system. EQ2 is very crafter friendly in that there is no need to adventure to succeed as a crafter. The only cost is fuel, really, so if you make enough to cover that your all good. Rare gear is quite powerful as you level and certainly alot easier to obtain than that rare drop from a mob. Of course at max level raid gear and named stuff is better. EQ2 has quite a few consumables also for some classes. There are rewards for being a crafter also that is not avaliable to adventurers.
As it stands in the latest expansion there is armour that players purchase with "void shards" which they get from dungeons. Crafters can actually make this armour for crafters with a lower cost in shards, making the crafter a better option for players.
Also a market place that lists items indeffinitely (as long as you log on once a week) and costs nothing to list for sale, means that the markets are alway thriving with stuff for sale. Also that with a combination of nearly everything that drops/quested is "No Trade" means that crafters do have a market to sell to.
Really each class has their own viability so it is hard to generalise all crafting, but most are viable.

Man being busy at work sucks, took me like 6 hour off and on to type this out.

I know what you mean I'll be back soon.
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#14 Ozium

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 09:57 PM

i have tried the crafting system in many games over the years, but never played UO so no idea why that system is so differant as i have not seen it explaned.

i don't mind the gather or buy mats ( time vs $$ ) to make stuff to level up, sure at times and especialy in some game that was more chore than i consider worth it. but all in all it worked and we have a basic understanding of what to do and how it works.

i hope the gear is set up as vendor low quality normal drops good and craft stuff great with the exception of boss loot being the best and rare ( maybe boss only drops the mats to craft the super gear )

i remember seeing a blurb about item wear and needing repair, but it didn't say if they will eventually break and need replacement. i hope they do break after a long time of use to keep the craft orders going.

but beta is the time to work out kinks and make suggestions of how the game can be better, now as to if they listen or make the changes we suggest is another matter...

#15 Gemril

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 04:13 AM

i remember seeing a blurb about item wear and needing repair, but it didn't say if they will eventually break and need replacement. i hope they do break after a long time of use to keep the craft orders going.

I hope wear and tear is part of it. If your armor gets banged up, it can be repaired, but is SHOULD not be back at 100%.

Using a real life example:
You have an accident in your car that dings up the front quarter panel, you can take it to a shop where they take a dent puller, some Bondo, and paint and make is LOOK as good as new again. But it is not the same as new. After a few times of the dings, the metal fatigues and eventually it makes more sense to REPLACE the front quarter panel rather than have it repaired yet again.
(I think some remedial drivers training might be in order too.)

But you get the idea, you may have a breastplate that is the best out there, but get it banged up and repaired several times, and it may look to be in great shape, but the weakened areas may fail at JUST the wrong time. It will still look good on display in your hall of ancestry! That concept, balanced right, will keep crafters well employed by the adventures who need that replacement armor.
(and that adventurer might need remedial dodging. )

:D

#16 Vanpry

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 05:20 AM

I doubt they will have item destruction. More then likely they will mimic ever other mmo in this regard. Item wear but a simple npc repair puts it back to 100%.

I'm a fan of item wear and destruction, it keeps the economy revolving but most people do not like loosing their shines. This would make adventure possible dependent on crafting which no one seams to want while crafter are completely dependent on adventures. If you don't get why I'm saying crafters are dependent on adventures you pretty much have to keep your adventure level higher or equal to your crafting level or you can not gather mats. Mats usually end up being more expensive then the gear they craft so crafting really ends up being a money sink.

#17 Dificeman

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 08:21 AM

The only issue I have with item destruction is the raid gear being destroyed. I should not have to keep raiding the same mob just to keep the piece of gear I won from them each of the previous 20 kills. I would say mark raid gear as not ebing able to be destroyed in the same manner as everything else but let the rest be able to to keep the crafters a steady job line. But /shrug I know many would not find that acceptable.

#18 Jergis

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 10:10 AM

-Interesting idea on item degradation after repair. Perhaps the item starts out with 100 'points' of durability, but each successive repair reduces the permanent durability rating by a point or two?

Having the item utterly destroyed upon reaching 0 durability is something i am not a fan of. For the early levels it's easy enough to replace, but as int he raid example it smells of forced raiding and cheapening one's achievements. Have it be unusable until repaired? Yes, but destroyed? For common tier items perhaps, but if legendary, god-like, or the equivalent i'd say the magical power that makes it special also prevents it from utter destruction through usage.

Jergis

#19 Ozium

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 11:13 AM

maybe can salvage the damaged item to recover some mats to make a new one, would lessen the sting a bit.
or how about instead of just paying the blacksmith or player to repair item it req mats to repair it?

but yeah raid gear should be a much higher quality and never be destroyed, might need more mats or $$ to repair it though.

#20 Vanpry

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 11:31 AM

The only issue I have with item destruction is the raid gear being destroyed. I should not have to keep raiding the same mob just to keep the piece of gear I won from them each of the previous 20 kills. I would say mark raid gear as not ebing able to be destroyed in the same manner as everything else but let the rest be able to to keep the crafters a steady job line. But /shrug I know many would not find that acceptable.

If raid drops were 1/100 instead of 1/10000 then replacing raid items would not be a big deal either. Using a WoW example if instead of having to raid kara 1000 times so your group of 10 get all required gear it would take maybe 100 times them move on to ZA. Maybe you would have to sneak back into Kara every so often to keep your back up gear supplied but in the end it would really equal out.

I like how LOTRO offers token for multiple classes instead of 1 piece of gear for one character. I lost count how many time we killed the same bosses over and over again just trying to get that one drop DEing stuff that no one needed. So much time wasted.

I would prefer to get what I needed quicker and moving on then possible coming back to replaced lost gear then running the same crap over and over and over and over and over and over......................................... It would of course be better if instead of having a geared team you needed a skilled team. But people like their shines, and of course the shines need to be omfg powerful.




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