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Respecs Love/Hate?


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Poll: What do you think of respecs? (22 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. Hate them! (9 votes [13.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.04%

  2. Love them! (37 votes [53.62%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.62%

  3. Thay are ok, but dont use. (12 votes [17.39%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.39%

  4. Thay are needed for the casuals (7 votes [10.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.14%

  5. How can i else play Flavour of the month spec? (4 votes [5.80%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.80%

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#1 Athos

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:30 AM

So what is your standing with respecs?

#2 Swift

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:24 AM

MMORPG's are always being changed. Skills being powered up or down and in some cases being completely reworked. Since a month from launch there is no assurance that any particular skill will work as it did at launch, respecs are needed. Not free respecs mind you. But a way to earn them: I'd like to see it cost in-game coin. So it would take time to earn that coin and then you have to choose to use that coin for better gear or a respec.

#3 Athos

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:58 AM

i hate dem( voted so )
becuose it makes people change to the "best" allways.
aka flavour of the month. There should be no need at all to rework how combat/Magic och crafting works from start if thats so its a poor designed system from the begging. And if such stuff accure then ofcourse there should be some kind of resett for that skill only. The point is its kinda boring when you one day meet a character playing dagger and next day all of a sudden thay are a mage instead. But thats becouse most people have the mindset of the most newer mmogs out there =/ predefined roles. static equipment. no drops on the ground.

If the character development system is unlimited skillbased there shuld be no reason to respec at all.

#4 Swift

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:05 AM

Athos, we disagree and will likely never agree. Such is the way of most fundamental questions of gameplay. Which is fine and I always enjoy a good debate.

From the feature list, the character development system is not unlimited skillbased. It seems like it is class based with many variations in skills, abilities, and specializations. So even with respec you will not see a Guardian turn into a Wizard.

But you may find that Guardian change from sword and shield to a two-handed weapon. I disagree that a character changing weapons is boring. Seems like it would be more interesting if character's are able to change weapons now and then. Again, at a cost.

That there should be no need for changes to the system: I agree it would be great to have a system that never will be changed. But that's not realistic. MMORPG's a very fluid. There is no perfect system and changes will happen. Given that changes to skills and abilities that are beyond the player's control will happen, a way to earn respecs is necessary.

#5 Athos

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:48 AM

Athos, we disagree and will likely never agree. Such is the way of most fundamental questions of gameplay. Which is fine and I always enjoy a good debate.

From the feature list, the character development system is not unlimited skillbased. It seems like it is class based with many variations in skills, abilities, and specializations. So even with respec you will not see a Guardian turn into a Wizard.

But you may find that Guardian change from sword and shield to a two-handed weapon. I disagree that a character changing weapons is boring. Seems like it would be more interesting if character's are able to change weapons now and then. Again, at a cost.

That there should be no need for changes to the system: I agree it would be great to have a system that never will be changed. But that's not realistic. MMORPG's a very fluid. There is no perfect system and changes will happen. Given that changes to skills and abilities that are beyond the player's control will happen, a way to earn respecs is necessary.


lovely i love to debate too. Its the best way to lern other perspectiv of things! =)


Sure skills can change but its very rare that thay change the full combatsystem the layer that uses the skills and stuff i know of only 2 games that have done this thay are SWG and EQ2.

And the skills relating to weapons. Sure i am fine with that. in the limits of classbased game. In classbased games respecs is almost a must. But tex diablo2 didnt use respecs and sure i can be frustrating having 1 point misplaced but still not game breaking.

And btw having a class system in todays mmos dosnt work very well. more then not there will be classes less attraktiv for dungeons. and to make all classes equally attractiv for dungeons some needs to be buffed witch means the playingfield is the same as a skillbased game.

and i AGREE with you on the weapon thingy. Partly becouse i dont think weapon specs should be in the skill three. A warrior should be able to use whatever weapon he has and still be a warrior. The skills in a warrior class three should have to do with the warrior him self not the weapons he choose. the same with mages and other classes. It allows freedome of choise in weapon. Like a priest lerning to use the bow since he wont be in the heat anyway so he can shoot while everyone is fine and dandy with hp. =)


*edit
why do i have to type so much? *grins* hope it makes some kind of sense =)

#6 Swift

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:52 AM

Crusade will be a class based game, six of them in total. So, respecs will be a must.

Diablo 2 got away with no respecs six years ago, the biggest reason was: No monthly fee.
And you could choose not to use the changes if you didn't want to and just play offline single player.

Full combat system overhauls maybe rare. However changes to individual skills, both large and small, are very common. Again, it comes back to when parts of a character are altered beyond the player's control, the player should have a way to earn a respec, a way to react to those changes.

#7 kravix

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 01:20 PM

I would prefer to see a system where respecs are never needed. Because Crusade going to supply a hybrid class/skill system, not 100% sure how this will function, but I am thinking something akin to DAOC, respecs will probably be needed at some point.

Now if the system is not as regulated as DAOC and more open skill based as UO was then they will never be needed.

Personally I would prefer to see a completly open skill system which incorporates skill loss over time for non-use. Of course regaining skill that were previously lost should scale from normal progression to 2x, 3x.. progression based upon how recent in the characters life the skill was lost.

#8 Retina

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 05:02 PM

Personally I would prefer to see a completly open skill system which incorporates skill loss over time for non-use. Of course regaining skill that were previously lost should scale from normal progression to 2x, 3x.. progression based upon how recent in the characters life the skill was lost.

Yup, that's a great system. I've even implemented something very much like that. Of course, that's for a pure-skill based RPG system, but this concept would be great in Crusade.

#9 kravix

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:15 PM

Yup, that's a great system. I've even implemented something very much like that. Of course, that's for a pure-skill based RPG system, but this concept would be great in Crusade.


True, but we can always hope, or beg!

#10 lilibat

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 10:26 PM

I don't think these should necessarily be easy or cheap, but having played a character I gimped because I didn't know any better to end game in EQ was extremely frustrating. I wished I had had the option to respec because anyone new to a game who didn't play in beta or who hasn't read a zillion forum posts can really make their game time more difficult than it needs to be.

The simple truth is, in most games, there really is one spec that works best for that character type. It's not such a big deal early on, but when you get to endgame you need to be able to perform your job the best way you can and not being able to add to a group or a raid will keep you from being able to enjoy the end game content. It's just the way these games are usually designed, it'd be nice for some change, but I'm not holding my breath. Class balance is tough enough without having to also balance all possible permutations of a class/race combo.

Respecing in WoW worked weell for me because I could enjoy my big damage sopec till I got to raiding levels, then I got to respec and it was like playing a whole new character without having to start over and really kept the game fresh for me for a while.

That being said, I like the skill loss idea too. Really it has the same net effect, you get to fix mistakes you make early on before you know what you are doing.

#11 Athos

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 03:37 AM

"Full combat system overhauls maybe rare. However changes to individual skills, both large and small, are very common.
Again, it comes back to when parts of a character are altered beyond the player's control, the player should
have a way to earn a respec, a way to react to those changes."

Yes changes are vary common and that are called balancing. But as games online is today no one but roleplayers can accept
that their characters got a bit weeker in the balacing and thends to respec to the "better" and more competetiv.
I can understand people chaniging becouse i dont like this anymore. But people changing to be the "best" and to
"beat" the game i dont like.

But thats probobly the natrual way of the "non competetiv" gamers out there. Thay play to have fun not to be the best.
There was a really good article on this someware that i read. maby ill find it later. for thouse intrested.

"Personally I would prefer to see a completly open skill system which incorporates skill loss over time for non-use.
Of course regaining skill that were previously lost should scale from normal progression to 2x, 3x.. progression
based upon how recent in the characters life the skill was lost."

Sounds like a great system to me. Relerning is never as hard as lerning. So relerning a skill up to its privious level
would not be hard while lerning from there would then go at normal pace. [tumbs up]

"Respecing in WoW worked weell for me because I could enjoy my big damage sopec till I got to raiding levels, then I got
to respec and it was like playing a whole new character without having to start over and really kept the game fresh
for me for a while."

WoW had one of the most boring character development system ever created in an mmo. ALmost as boring as Linage2 is.
I can understand it form 1 perspectiv becouse it will be easyer to balance. But then again it allowes no freedom when
creating YOUR avatar.




And i for one when playing a new game. Any game at all. KNOW that i will have to lern the turns and twists.
Therefor especially in mmo games i play a character for about a few hours decinding the funfactor of it.
If i feel its worth to spend time on it ill create a new character with the knowledge i have lerned.
And since i now have an better understanding of the game maby even "know" a few quests it will take me about
half the time to get to the ponit were my first character is. Allthough always i keep my first created character
alway even if he is gimped to hell. Becouse it was my first char to show me the way in the new worlds.



*note* i wrote this in notepad to easyer manage multiple qutoes hope each of you know whom i quoted =)

#12 Dragon Zero

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 09:26 AM

Respecing is great. It allows you to experiment with your character and it also allows you to change him when the envitable nerf or buff comes along. If you can't respec then you can't experiment and learn your class and you can't change when something gets nerfed.

#13 Taenuarhew

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 11:02 AM

I liked UO's skill system, set things to rise or fall, no requirement to keep skills. But this game has no skill cap, and you gain based on what you do. So is this type of thing really needed? If you want to gain in something else then do something else.

#14 Swift

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 11:26 AM

It's good to hear that most so far agree that Respecing is good and needed in game due to experimentation/nerfs and other reasons.

But I have to disagree with the suggest for skill loss:

It's not a good idea to punish players for not constantly playing the game or even the same character. Given the choice of play the game or going to movies/dinner/themepark/vacation with friends/family, most are going to do the real life thing even though they will be frustrated knowing their character will be decaying while they are not playing it. Or when they take a break to play the new Zelda/Halo/Guitar Hero game. Also, what if someone experiments with a character from another faction, while they tryout the new class/race their old one is decaying.

Think of the effect it would have on roleplay and the community. Are players going to relax around to roleplay and chat if they know every moment they don't swing an axe or cast a fireball that their skills are being lost?

Even further down the line: Someone reads about or finds the new Crusade expansion in stores. They see all these great new areas, monsters, and weapons. But they remember they haven't play Crusade for three months and their character is now much weaker than when they left it and before they can use the new expansion content they'll have to level themselves up all over again on the old content. In the end they don't buy the expansion and they don't play Crusade again.

This is a game, people will play it for fun. Character decay is frustrating and people will not pay $15 a month for frustration.

#15 Speed

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 12:18 PM

I like the idea of skill loss. A character of 'x' level should have 'y' skill points. If they use a lot of combat skills, their stealth or magic skills should slowly degrade.

I haven't looked at the proposed system for Crusade yet so I'll just use some generic skill types for my example: If sword goes up 3 points, your stealth, ice magic and survival skills should each go down one point. The skills that are reduced should be the ones that were the least used.

If you use all your skills equally, your character will be well rounded but not an expert in anything. If you concentrate on a small subset of skills, you will have more power but less versatility.

The game should encourage use of all skills but not force it. The game should discourage super-specialization.

Someone mentioned a means to regain lost skills at a faster rate. I like the idea but it is counter to having a fixed skill point pool.

Something that might be interesting as an alternative would be to increase the cost of skills the higher they get. Again, just as an example if 100 is the max skill, make the first 50 points cost '1', from 51-75 cost '2', 76-85 cost '4', 86-90 cost '6', 91-95 cost '8' and 96-100 cost '10 skill points. To max out a skill would require 50 + 50 + 40 + 30 + 40 + 50 = 260 skill points. Very expensive to max it out fairly easy to get above average.

#16 Athos

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 01:08 AM

Respecs becouse of the so called "nerfbat" is really really ugly.
The therm nerfbat or nerf is ugly too. There is reasons from developer perspectiv that thay rebalance things. Becouse it isnt preforming what the design says it should. Somtimes its a increase in power somtimes its a decrese in power. But that dosnt really matter. Becouse its JUST balanceing.
People respecing JUST BECOUSE thay arnt as uber anymore is just lame. Go and play your singelplayer game were you are the SUPER HERO with no other to match you. Most people forget that MMORPG stands for massiv multiplayer online ROLEPLAYING GAME. Thay aren't MMMOHAS witch thay should be called massiv multiplayer HACK AND SLASH games. And the point? There is no SUPER HEROS in mmorpg everyone is on the same footing. Every skill and klass has its designed uses. And mmorpgs is designed to "not beat the game". You cant beat an mmorpg.

So what if your class/skills get some balancing. Shure you will not be as effectiv as before maby or you might even get a real unbalancing. But if its so hard you cant play at all anymore then the devs did somthing wrong. BUt if you are maby 5% less effectiv and on par with your archer friend but 1% less effectiv then the assasin you were 3% more effectiv before then thats no real reason to respec assasin instead of swashbuckler you just have. People dosnt think in longtime perspectiv on thise matters.

To take an example. Asherson call.
My first char was a real real gimp. And i dint notice untill level 43 or somthing. And mind you thats quite high level and i had about 1 months playtime at that moment. But during that while i wastn really bad. just a bit less effectiv even though i screwd up my skills. And i finely decided to reroll. With a better skill setup and tons of more knowledge of the game. I made a character that fitted me perfectly and was up at same level in notime.

And its still a game. Games are supposed to be fun. Cant you have fun without beeing the absolutly best character in game i guess massiv multiplayer isnt really for you i guess. There are lots of other multiplayer online games were you can be the best from your own skills. but as soon as there is character level, skills, and just some twitch elements. You cant really always be the best.

Sorry if i sounds like grumpy old man. But to my dismay most mmorpgs of late as well as most singelplayer games offers no or very little challange. With quicksaves in singelplayer games and direction markers/waypoints and everything else handed to you on a silverplate.
WoW is the worst example really. Its so easy it isnt really nothing but a long long grind.

#17 OnyxBMW

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Posted 17 May 2006 - 02:05 PM

Respecs are necessary to the health of an MMO. You proved it yourself with your AC1 example.

Would you rather have respecced a few skills and perfected your character rather than reroll and work your way back up?

It's frustrating and a huge waste of time to reroll in any game.

Regardless of how you do it, if a respec system exists people will go for flavor of the month builds. Yet, if respecs don't exist, people will reroll to flavor of the month classes. I remember in planetside where when a gun was rebalanced or a faction got buffs/nerfs that the "fourth empire" (non-loyalist people who'd switch to different teams pending power status) would switch from empire to empire and severely imbalance the game and cause mass problems.

However, this is related to more of a "class" rebalance than a skill modification. Take for example WoW. You rebalance something and everyone who isn't happy or loyal goes for it (see shamans/hunters)

The point is, it's necessary to allow respecs if there is ever a permanent choice made within a class system, but NOT a class respec (things related to the class) or other level-based racial choices (see EQ2) because not chosing one of the specific abilities can severely gimp you in ways beyond that which you can comprehend and destroy your character.

People will do flavor of the month regardless of if respecs exist, using it as an excuse for not having respecs is pointless.

Hopefully, however (due to what has been said) respecs won't be necessary in this game...

#18 Athos

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 10:54 PM

"It's frustrating and a huge waste of time to reroll in any game."
The moment you feel a game is frustrating and a waste of time you probobly should quit. Games ar supposed to be fun. And i really hate flavour of the month. It destroys roleplay and people dont learn to play with what thay have and make the best of it. IT dumbs down the game. And the lack of intresting and more difficult mmo games is frustrating to me.
I dont say this game is supposed to go the path that i want. IT might be becouse i am a roleplay person in my heart. Or that i cant se any logical path to how one can throw away all experience you have collected in a few styles/skills to magicly relearn somthing else.

The level of difficulty a casual gamer wants is that of my grandma(80) and a bit easier.(that is atleast what people in the gamedev industry says) I mean whats the point. To me fun games ar challanging a bit like logical puzzels and i have fun weather i grind or create new characters. When i dont have fun anymore i stop playing. Ang games to easy i loose intrest in. Becouse thay are not fun anymore.

And to take the example of rebalancing skills/class with buffs/nerfs. That makes people play with all thay got instead of "OH NO I DO 5 POINTS LESS DAMAGE PER HIT NOW I BETTER RESPEC" when you already see hits for 1595 already. There is a really good example of this in wow. People saying certain specs isnt allowed go join groups becouse thay arnt the best. Or denying certain classes becouse it isnt optimal. I say screw optimal, i say screw the best.

And i have an even better example of this.
I were to do onyxia key quest chain in LBRS the groupleader prefered to have 1 player dual account with a shaman and a warloc instead of bringing an druid to heal. Having 5 players activ is alot better then having 4. It was about the resses but then again with 5 activ players probobly hadnt died as much.

"Respecs are necessary to the health of an MMO. You proved it yourself with your AC1 example. "

What did i prove? that i liked the game and had fun with new character? That i reall liked the road back to the game level? that li liked to comper to the previus road? That i liked by first character still even thou i just was a bit less effectiv? AC still has one of absolutly best skill systems at todays date. It was simpel logical and nice. The more you specialized the less skills you got overall. THere wasnt a tons of skills meining there werent any redutant skills eiher and so on.

#19 OnyxBMW

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 01:18 AM

The problem is, not everyone is so happy with realizing they screwed up their character. If I screwed up my character after over a month in-game invested, possibly with really good items, really well known, etc etc, and I couldn't respec to correct the issue, then I'm going to be mad because of the massive time investment I put into my character which is now "lost".

If you can handle rerolling your character after making a mistake, then so be it, but if I realize I just spent X amount of days in game for progress and am at Z relative power to the (strongest) persons in this game, then you're damned right I'm gonna be pissed that I don't have something that may be necessary to my character. My archer in AC1 I had 3 months invested in him. I didn't have one very vital skill though for my character, a lot of wasted skill points in abilities I can't use because of this one skill I would need to really use it. The game is pretty hard to play any character whom uses magic without mana conversion. By the time I realized just how necessary the skill was, I had already invested a large chunk of time into my archer (he was damned fun, btw) and it really ticked me off. However, I did just keep playing the character. Eventually, they offered skill respecs on a 3 week timer per skill, and I was able to get rid of a nigh-useless ability and get mana conversion, which improved my overall character's efficiency in a manner that helps gameplay and promotes fun.


A respec does not need to be every single skill, talent, and attribute a character has. It can be one item at a time. AC2 had a nice respec system for their game. You had to gain XP equal to the amount of XP in the skill in order to unlearn it. Therefore, if you put 40k XP into your skill, it took 40k XP that you had to kill to unlearn the skill. This was a really balanced system since flavor of the month builds (which didn't really exist) took time to take spec towards, but it allowed experimentation.

The point is, allowing respecs for optimization so you can tweak your character and test abilities before keeping them are good for the health of an MMO. It doesn't need to be a full respec, it just needs to have something so that I don't have to re-invest a lot of time in to in essence the same character to rectify a mistake that any newb could easily make without knowing it.

If you make the respec take time, so as to allow respeccing out of a bad skill or something you don't like, this is a good thing. A full respec maybe once a month/year? also good. Regardless, respecs should be in any game that has class-altering abilities. Think of it this way. Imagine if you're playing WoW, and you, as a newb, grabbed wand spec as a mage. You level, you level more, you keep it for whatever reason, but then at 60 you realize it is a useless talent. You can put points elsewhere that are far more beneficial to your character. Imagine if you couldn't respec your talent tree. Despite the time investment for WoW, wouldn't you be pissed if you couldn't get out of the investment in a blatantly useless skill?

Another example: Planetside. you invest certification points into a gun to try it out. Lets say special assault. You try it, but realize that you don't like how the thumper handles (think grenade launcher). It's just not your style and it hurts you and your team more than it helps because you can't use it properly or don't want to use a weapon designed for area effect suppression.

But, you can't get out of it and are stuck with it forever, and you don't want to make the investment to get up to that level again.

In an MMO, we're not talking 8, 10, 20 hours of gameplay in a singleplayer game lost, we're talking 1000 hours+ if not more in some cases of time devoted to increasing your character's progress through the environment. Most people can't just take back those 1000 hours on a whim and brush it off, because that is essentially 1000 hours of wasted time that they could have used for many more activities. Denying people the right to alter a character-defining (NOT CLASS) ability that they chose when they may or may not know the full ramifications of just what their change will do is not healthy for something that requires a large amount of time to be invested into it.


Flavor of the month builds and characters will always exist and be made, but people should still be allowed to respec out of their mistakes regardless of if they chose to or to not use the flavor of the month build. In WoW, I never used flavor of the month builds. I found that they always did something that I didn't like or got stuff I found to be useless to me, so I always did my own spec. However, part of finding my spec is experimenting, and when experimenting, you're doomed to fail every so-often, and I'd like to be able to experiment multiple times without needing to pump in 15 days or more to get back to the level I was at when I did the first experiment (granted 15 days in-game of WoW was enough to get max level, it's still time lost due to experimentation or newb mistakes)

#20 Syndic

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 11:33 PM

So what is your standing with respecs?

Can't really give a black or white answer until the details of how such a thing is handled is given out, that's even if they do intend to have something like this in game.

There are just too many things that we don't know about with regards to the games mechanics to hazzard even a guess at what respeccing would do or how it would, should be handles or even if it needs to be.

There are a few ways I could think of where this could be balanced well into a game, but also can think of many a way to totally rip software to shreds with respeccing.




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