40 replies to this topic

[Syndic]

I've been thinking about studies lately, actually seems to be the main thing I think about.

Now I must admit I haven't been to the end game, but looking at how things are heading I don't see studies having enough of an impact on your character.

I think some of them could use some major balancing. I'm not sure if there are plans in place to allow for adjustments on times but I'm sure modifying the results of studies should be easy enough.

An example would be stat studies. These figures are all taken from the library, I know totals don't work in the library so I totalled them myself.

Basic Weightlifting
Rank 1: 4 hours
Rank 2: 14 hours 39 minutes 4 seconds
Rank 3: 2 days 5 hours 39 minutes 56 seconds
Rank 4: 8 days 4 hours 34 minutes 7 seconds
Rank 5: 30 days
Total 41 days, 4 hours, 53 mins, 7 secs

Intermediate Weightlifting
Rank 1: 1 days
Rank 2: 2 days 18 hours 47 minutes 44 seconds
Rank 3: 7 days 17 hours 54 minutes 11 seconds
Rank 4: 21 days 13 hours 23 minutes 52 seconds
Rank 5: 60 days
Total 93 days, 2 hours, 5 mins, 47 secs

Advanced Weightlifting
Rank 1: 3 days
Rank 2: 5 days 8 hours 2 minutes 10 seconds
Rank 3: 9 days 11 hours 41 minutes 2 seconds
Rank 4: 16 days 20 hours 53 minutes 8 seconds
Rank 5: 30 days
Total 64 days, 16 hours, 36 mins, 20 secs

Grand Total: 198 days, 23 hours, 35 mins, 14 secs

Firstly seems out of whack that Intermediate takes 29 days longer than Advanced. I'm just not sure that spending over 1/2 a year studying just to get 15 in a stat is worth the time invested. Will 15 of a stat be that much of a difference? Sure as level 10 15 of a stat would be heaps, but I'm not sure that at level 50 it will be more than a drop in the pond. Maybe if it was 1% and not just +1 then we'd see the type of improvement I would think to expect from studies. At +15 I'd think maybe a month of study total. One way or the other I think this needs to be adjusted.

Put in the phrase as studies were advertised, will that casual player who has been playing for a long time and studied up really have that much of an advantage over the brand new hard-core player of the same level.

This is just one example i can find many more.

Secondly in this post I'd like to point out what I would consider to be overly extended studies. I don't really want to be sitting around for 30 days waiting for that last step of a study to complete. Finding it hard enough to wait 5 days to see only the slightest improvement in my character. I don't think any study step should require more than a week to complete ever. As one of my friends pointed out, sure EVE has studies that take 30 days but by the end of that 30 days you could do something you could not do before. So 30 days may work to learn a new attack or a new spell (that's a big may) but to add +1 to Strength or Endurance is a massive investment for no gain.

Do we really need years of studies with little gain. I don't think I'd really mind actually being able to reach an "end" to study. This would free me up to study on another character, or to catch up on that new race/class when they are introduced. Protracting studies out to take months instead of days is not really a way of adding more value to studies or the game.

You know the most prefect study I have come across so far is Martial Discipline; +4% chance to increase weapon skill.
Rank 1: 10 minutes
Rank 2: 26 minutes 19 seconds
Rank 3: 1 hours 9 minutes 16 seconds
Rank 4: 3 hours 2 minutes 21 seconds
Rank 5: 8 hours
Total: 12 hours, 47 mins, 56 secs

It's perfect it takes 1/2 a day to learn but since it only helps a character as they level and doesn't effect their power at max level. It is allround well balanced.

I guess the question is how long would you expect to work at adding +5 to a stat. Adding +1 to stats is not really that big a deal I believe certainly not worth more than a couple of days.

I guess what I'm getting at is I would like to see studies having a bigger effect for the time studied.

[neoterrar]

In before the headache. This issue has been rehashed a lot. I, of course, agree with you. From what I've heard from Eve after those long study times you can build a ship. Here you get varied things. The main reply you will get is, it forces you to make choices of what you really want.

From what I recall, you only need 3 in a study to advance to the next tier. So you can skip the really really really long study and just grab the next tier up.

Martial Discipline is a bandaid for another issue, so it was introduced later and is much faster than the norm. (issue being slow level ups on weapons of course(2h still need a remedy))

[Calmedan]

Excellent post Syndic, the points you have raised are valid and need attention. Either a significant reduction in study times or a worthwhile boost to the bonuses achieved through studying will validate the usefulness of the feature.

[vext]

I also think the rewards should scale a little more with the length of time involved.

Currently it is +1 for all ranks. Think it should be more like:

+1, +1, +1, +3, +5

Spending 30 days for +1 endurance seems like a little overkill.

[Syndic]

Even though I used the stat one as an example another worth while example would be that of Spell Power increase studies. Currently each one increase Spell Power by +3. So after 5 levels of study you have an extra 15 points in spell power in a certain damage type. Does 15 spell power really make that much of a diff at level 50?

just putting the question out there.

[Radshak]

Even though I used the stat one as an example another worth while example would be that of Spell Power increase studies. Currently each one increase Spell Power by +3. So after 5 levels of study you have an extra 15 points in spell power in a certain damage type. Does 15 spell power really make that much of a diff at level 50?

just putting the question out there.

Amen to the original post.

I think everyone would agree that studies are broken. I mean who would spend 90 days studying for +1 dodge rating?

At this point I see most people going for rank 3 in the most important studies.

[Calmedan]

I get the feeling they won't change study times to more acceptable time frames, this would risk upsetting people who have invested significant time in a study only to find someone else can now complete that study in (e.g.) half the time.

Would be worthwhile to boost the benefits of studies, move away from exact gains and adopt the percentage gains across all relevant studies. As has been mentioned by posters in this topic the gains from studies are not advantageous.

I like the notion that studies open up content in the game, but having seen how study times increase at a higher than exponential rate I really can't be bothered taking the gamble that I might get a good quest if I spend 30 days studying a particular line of knowledge.

[Syndic]

I get the feeling they won't change study times to more acceptable time frames, this would risk upsetting people who have invested significant time in a study only to find someone else can now complete that study in (e.g.) half the time.

Oh don't worry I'd have the same reaction, that is why I also made the query of do they have plans in place to compensate for time spent on a study.
Example - if they have a study that takes 2 days and reduces it to 1, those that have the study should get a refund on that day that can be attributed to another study.

I've been thinking about this a bit lately and I think it shouldn't be too hard to implement. Since we have bonuses to study for long subs already, I've noticed that the time is shorter but the number of study points to a study is still the same for everyone. So by implementing a refund pool of study points you can give players their points back via this pool and while points are in this pool study speed is increased rapidly until the pool is empty. The speed that the pool empties should be fast so was thinking about 10x speed or something like that.
I'll give an example :- the 2 day study reduced to 1 day.
Original study points 172,800
New study points 86,400
Refund pool 86,400
at 10x speed for 8,640 secs you would get 11 points in your current study instead of just 1. So in just over 2 hours your pool would be empty again and study speeds would go back to normal.
For extending times I guess you could have the refund pool go into negatives and only give 1 point of study every 10 secs instead of every second, therby reducing the refund pool by 9 points every 10 secs.
Not that I think any times need to be extended, but doesn't mean plans shouldn't be in place.

[Sortiarius]

Oh don't worry I'd have the same reaction, that is why I also made the query of do they have plans in place to compensate for time spent on a study.
Example - if they have a study that takes 2 days and reduces it to 1, those that have the study should get a refund on that day that can be attributed to another study.

Absolutely Right On! I was thinking along the same lines. Even more valid are the studies that require 30 days and more. I would be really upset to spend months on a line of studies, only to see the requirements dropped to weeks or days, and not have any compensation for the time already spent.

This is a very valid point that I hope makes it through.

Sorti

[Syndic]

This is a very valid point that I hope makes it through.

I'm sure we all do. Also I was thinking for something targetted as a casual game we shouldn't need players to hang around for a month to get +1 to a stat, or +3 to spellpower. Should be hours to maybe days.

[Tyval]

I agree with much of what was said.

Studies are the one of the main things that made me try out this game even when I knew there were issues and things were missing. It could add a whole new dimension to things if done correctly.

The current system seems underwhelming at best.

I would really like to see the devs comment on how they would like to see the study system be improved.

I can offer a couple of suggestions (some have been mentioned already).

Rewards should reflect the time spent, 30 days for a +1 somewhere just seems silly.

Having a path that takes 120+ days should yield something pretty fun and useful. New powerful spells, USEFUL bonuses to stats that are good at endgame.

Keep all the + 1 this and that for stats to be of the minute/hour variety.

If I choose to go down a path that takes months to complete, that means I'm not advancing on any of my other characters on that account nor am I able to advance down any other path. This should mean something, and be an oh Wow! when I finally get it.

I'm assuming the devs built in a reset option to the core of the system, as I'm sure the devs forsaw changing abilities/studies and for studies that can take months to earn it certainly seems obvious that a reset feature is needed.

Anyway I think the concept of studies is a great one, and one that could bring folks to the game, but they need quite a bit of work at the present.

edit: typo etc
T

Edited by Tyval, 18 December 2009 - 01:56 AM.

[c1oudrs]

I'd just add that studies are one of the fun areas of game. Also that 30-60 days for little gain isn't something that I would be interested in doing with my studies--studies are too much fun to watch level fast and there are too many other studies that are worthwhile. I love to click on and plan my studies and see how many hours i have till the next one.

Other than Eve (or so I understand), no other game is currently doing studies. So whatever is fun AND can be balanced might add to the uniqueness of the game.

[Swordmage]

I think that judging Alganon studies by our EVE experience problematic. In EVE, studies are the one and only method of "leveling" your character; in Alganon, studies are used to spice up the game by adding a little extra power to your character or giving your character access to new content.

I also don't quite understand why two to four weeks of study to open something up is a problem in a game which one will be playing for several years.

[c1oudrs]

I think that judging Alganon studies by our EVE experience problematic. In EVE, studies are the one and only method of "leveling" your character;

Well, I didn't play EVE so I'm not judging studies by EVE. I mentioned EVE only because its my understanding that (aside from EVE) Alganon is unique in having studies and that for me studies are a big part of the game. Your point SwordMage is well taken that Alganon has done their own spin on studies. If anything I think it goes further with the point that I was trying to make. I think we both can agree that Alganon is a fun game with unique elements.

As for the time element, 1-2 months to craft, level or do studies is fun for some. For others of us, not so much. However one of the best parts about the studies is the ability to choose according to our own playing style.

[Minuvo]

I've posted regarding this before but I'm more than happy to do so again because many people do miss the total value of studies.

Studies that increase statistics seem minor because they are cumulative. There's more than one study that increases spell power (as an example) and when you add them all up you get a sizable boost. That total boost, that eventual level that any player can reach is what we balance the individual gains around.

Regarding study times - we've built them in such a fashion that it's not necessarily the smartest move to just queue it up to five and forget about it until the next full moon. Looking at the weightlifting example you've given - you can get 3 ranks in each in a much shorter time than it takes to max out the first study and get 4 in the second. That's on purpose; we want studies to be managed, not ground.

[Lodor]

Yet you still blindly miss that time rewarded is not even close to being balanced across the studies board.

Does not matter if you go to rank 3 then do rank 3 of the next level, etc. Time input does not equal reward gained at all anywhere across the studies spectrum.

It is why I will always call studies a major gimick because it is handled so wrong time wise.

[Tyval]

I've posted regarding this before but I'm more than happy to do so again because many people do miss the total value of studies.

Studies that increase statistics seem minor because they are cumulative. There's more than one study that increases spell power (as an example) and when you add them all up you get a sizable boost. That total boost, that eventual level that any player can reach is what we balance the individual gains around.

Regarding study times - we've built them in such a fashion that it's not necessarily the smartest move to just queue it up to five and forget about it until the next full moon. Looking at the weightlifting example you've given - you can get 3 ranks in each in a much shorter time than it takes to max out the first study and get 4 in the second. That's on purpose; we want studies to be managed, not ground.

I hear what you are saying, and I agree it probably does make more sense at the beginning to focus on getting more of the shorter duration studies.

However, at some point all the 10min, 1 hr, 1 day studies that make any sense for the character will be learned. What then? What I have seen so far, (and granted this is from looking at the descriptions and such), is many of the long study ones seem pretty underwhelming, I still think that when I commit to a longer study I should be excited when I've finally finished the study. I don't think these have to be overpowered to have a wow! factor. But taking two weeks or a month, these need to do more.

I want to emphasize this again,

Studies have the potential to really add something fun and new to the game that isn't available anywhere else (ya I know Eve.. but still). It could be the thing that differentiates this game from the many other fantasy MMOs, I want this game to succeed and see this as an area that could be improved. Because as studies stand right now, they don't seem to be more than fluff.

T

[Minuvo]

Here's the perspective to consider - 3 months from now after you have completed three months of studies and new content is available - should new players also be required to have three months of studies in order to access that content?

Studies are HUGE. Look at it this way; you get at most 2 points of any primary statistic when you level up. Through studies you can get 10, 15, however many we decide to allow. After spending enough time your character has a substantial edge. Functionally they'll behave as if they could wear extra gear (and not gimpy ones).

That advantage has to be grown into. You can't carry a guildie through studies. You can't hand them crafted studies to speed up their leveling. Furthermore that advantage doesn't decay - new studies add on top of existing studies. They don't replace existing bonuses like gear does.

Times are not meant to be balanced on a rank per rank level. They take a lot of time for the higher ranks and are not necessarily equally progressive. The extra time at higher ranks creates a buffer zone where newer players can catch up quickly through good management but ultimately older players stay ahead.

As a parting note I think players tend to put too much emphasis on statistic studies. There's quite a few studies that allow you to equip rare items and do additional quests. Since these studies tend to be situational (access to said rare items or quests) their value tends to be under-rated, especially when most of our player base is still focused on early content.

[Syndic]

I'm certainly not saying every study is out of the ball park, as I have not seen every study nor seen their effect on the game.

I have yet to notice a single quest or item that has required a study. Maybe that could be becuase there is no indication in game as such that these things really do exist. Maybe once level requirements are met a quest giver can have a black or white marker over their heads, not to say my level is a little too low, but that they have a quest I just haven't studied enough. In the case of items have study requirements listed in the tooltip. What I'm saying is rather than hiding things that need to be studied, show us and intice us to study that item, throw it in our faces so we salivate over the possibilities.

As to the stat studies, I pointed them out becuase they are my first example of a study that is out of proportion. Sure you can start the next tier of studies after tier 3 of the current one, and this is exactly what I am doing.

Times are not meant to be balanced on a rank per rank level. They take a lot of time for the higher ranks and are not necessarily equally progressive. The extra time at higher ranks creates a buffer zone where newer players can catch up quickly through good management but ultimately older players stay ahead.

I can understand your reasoning for that. I think any game that has advancement has it in some exponiential form. I just think that the gains are still very small.

So I've spent my 192 days getting +15 in a stat (although I'd be an idiot to), even go the route of the +9 in 32 days. Firstly is +15 in a stat really going to be worth spending over 1/2 a year on?(or even 32 days for +9) I mean if it is a stat I've been getting +2 a level in then by level 50 this equates to 15% improvement, but add gear onto that 100 and you see the benefits shinking. This is Headman's Gear level 49 green that I just picked up in the library - Head +25, Shoulder +20, Chest +25, Legs +25, cloak +16, Belt +20, Bracer +14x2, Gloves +20, Boots +20. So a set of that gear adds 199 to whatever stat you want. This still doesn't count - finger, mainhand, off hand, ranged or neck. Now I must admit this gear has nothing but strength (or whatever stat you choose) on it, so I think you'd be made to try and stack just one stat but for some classes it may work. But now our character is rocking around 300 in the chosen stat, does another +15 really have that much effect. Taking into account that in around only ~32 days someone can have +9 and make up that last 6 with gear it seems quite easily.

With the value of studies I'm not only talk about the lengthy times on studies (although I still think they could use some work) I'm also pointing towards what is actually given in a study in the grand scheme of things.

I want studies to be more of a defining feature of your character, rather than the difference between holding a level 1 item and holding a level 2.
I want a soldier to feel the pain when he goes to use a axe instead of his studied up sword. Or even better not choose that axe becuase even though the sword is much much lower it works out better. Currently I'm just not seeing this. Maybe I have to wait 2 years for studies to really show, the question I guess is should we have to wait 2 years?

[Calmedan]

Minuvo, I hate to say this but you're doing a very good impersonation of someone who missed the point completely. Both your posts fail to address the core issues that Syndic and others have brought to your attention (or at least tried to).

Please listen to Syndic and Lodor, both of them have posted very valid concerns with the studies system yet in your replies you have brushed the substance of their arguments to one side and simply attempted to justify what is currently a flawed system. If the system is meant to be flawed in its current form then admit it, don't try to make excuses for it.