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Skills - multidimensional


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#1 Grimmway

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 07:34 AM

So I was thinking the other day...

It is described in the interviews that a new character can go straight in to the world to play whack-a-mole, or they could become a blacksmith and make swords. Then, when the blacksmith heads into the world to play whack-a-mole, the smith is a little stronger, and has a little more skill with the sword over the total noob...

Then, considering that skill levels will determine a characters power rating, does it make sense to allow skills to not only allow things to happen, but to also allow other things to be minimized?

In other words, if I am an expert with the Glaive-guissarme, and I encounter someone with the same weapon, not only will I be better with the weapon, but I should also know how to best *counter* the weapon. (If I am a higher skill than them, that is).

Likewise, if I am an expert in the Glaive-guissarme and the icepick, yet am wielding my icepick and I encounter someone who has the Glaive-guissarme, my skill in G-g should allow me to use my knowledge of G-g skills/tactics to exploit weaknesses I can use with my icepick.

Clear as mud?

Similarily, if I am an expert in healing/bandages/non-magic healing, then I should know where the pressure points are, where the blood vessels are, etc. If I wield a weapon, my knowledge of anatomy and healing should allow me to *really* hurt someone all-the-better.

Again, if I am an expert armor-crafter, and I attack someone wearing armor that I am an expert in building, then I should know the weaknesses of that armor. If I am using an edged weapon, I know where to strike to hit flesh/exposed points. If I am using a blunt weapon, I know where to strike to ruin *his* armor so it is less effective.

:shock: This would take extensive balancing, to make work, of course. But it would completely encourage characters that are multi-dimensional!

Thoughts?

Grimmway

#2 dice

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 08:51 AM

I agree. That would be very nice.
This is an elegant way of implementing "skill overlap" that we have discussed often, as well as adding a new dimension.

Of course if I am an expert fencer, I would know the best forms of defense against the average epee wielder. At least, I should ;-)

Nice idea, not sure how difficult it would be to implement in code. I mean, it would have to be procedural (and therefore scalable)... no use hiring a bunch of content developers to mesh out the skill overlap and underlap matrices, getting everything nice for launch; then a few weeks later, add a new skill... damn it, have to readjust all of the percentages and whatnot. No, makes far more sense to create a system of interactions, where all the skills are just "inserted" as it were, and the sums of their interactions create the basis for a global "bonus" in defending against that attack, or in learning that related skill.

Adieux.

#3 Syndic

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 04:32 PM

Sounds like a nice idea but I would hate to be the way with the job of trying to implement it :)

#4 Grimmway

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 08:00 PM

I guess it would go like this.

First, the simple case.

You and your enemy both are armed with and skilled with the long sword.

You are skilled to 97%, he to 85% (or whatever..) anywho, both not too shabby at all.

You have an advantage, 12% over his 85%, which is actually a 14% advantage. What does this mean? Could mean you are more likely to hit, or more likely to parry, etc. He has a chance, but you are better skilled than him.

So you both switch to daggers. Your skill is 12%, his is 24%. He has a 100% advantage over you. He will cut you to pieces (once he figures out which end of the dagger to use). You will die with your knife still in the sheath.

Suddenly, your enemy switches to his longsword again (maybe he wants to try to skill it up more?). Now, he is attacking you with his 85% skill. You are still at your 12% skill. He has a tremendous advantage! However, you know what to expect with a longsword, but can you defend or take advantage with the dagger? So, you gain a fraction of the skill you have with the longsword added to your dagger. what percentage? dunno - whatever works best in testing.

New Case:

You are 100% in longsword, your enemy is 50%. You are also 50% in daggers, but your enemy is only 40% in daggers and he switches to his.

So you have a large advantage. 100% base for the sword, plus, lets say, half of the 10% advantage (really 20% - 10/50), so you are better with longswords and with daggers. You can use your longsword to great effect.. say approaching 120%.

So, overall, you have a combined 120% skill to his 40%. That is a 200% advantage to hit, avoid, parry, etc. You can play with your foe at your leisure.

Make sense?

As for other things, healing/critical wounds could just add more damage once a hit is successful. Armor crafting could allow better chances to strike through armor or weaken it's durability depending on the weapon you are wielding.

So really, this would not be a rock-scissors-paper match to code, it would just be a straight up skill check against your opponent. The difference in skill would affect the hit probability.

Seems reasonable and fair. Also, not too hard to throw some code together either to test.

Clearer mud?

Grimmway

#5 Bruxail

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 11:02 AM

I really like this. The best part, to me, would be that those who focus on crafting are not so useless in combat when they first start out. Sure, I already had better offense than someone new, but now I have even better offense, better defense, and better overall tatics.

I think the biggest part is implementing real tactics into a MMOG, which means being able to hit specific parts of the body. This has been done in RPGs I have played but I have not played any MMOGs that really did this.

#6 Zheng

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 06:23 AM

Bruxail, the original SWG did body-specific damage after a fashion. You have three health bars as it were... Health / Action / Mind. Each of these corresponded to the Torso / Arms and Legs / Head respectively. As certain combat classes (Teras Kasi Artist in my case) I could use certain attacks that would concentrate damage on specific parts. My favorite would be to use an attack called Nexu grin and focus my damage to their head and thus their mind pool since most people had a smaller mind pool than anything else. It was also harder to heal and buff that pool so it usually dropped them down pretty fast in PvP.

Obviously, that system is now gone, but the original was a nice way of doing things.

:arrow: On Topic:

We've talked about weapon skills improving defense against that weapon before and it's always made good sense IMO. I could live with a simple mechanic like every ten points in a weapon skills increased your defense vs. that weapon by 1. This is using a percent skill system soft capping at 100.

I do like the idea of the more complex system though. A skill vs. skill check like Grimmway has mentioned above. Maybe even incorporate which weapons are better vs. others. A swordman will have a decisive advantage against an equally skilled hand-to-hand figher in almost all instances and a polearm user will almost always get whooped by that same hand-to-hand fighter.

#7 Syndic

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 04:08 PM

Looking into this last night Vanguard has a rudimentry system like this out there. Rudimentry in that it only works with abilities and not with skills.

When you examine some abilties, usually the main attacks for a class, they have 2 icons at the bottom, 1 specifing weaknesses applied and the other weakness to take advantage of. When fighting a mob you see a row of buffs/debuffs currently on the mob, under this you can see another row of icons representing the effects applied to the mob. If you use an ability and it successfully lands it applies its weakness effect to the mob, if the weakness effect is currently on the mob relating to the ability you use you will get some extra effect. Example, my Sorcerer has a spell Char which applies Burning and takes advantage of Vunerable. If the mob has Vunerable on it at the time of casting Char I find myself doing extra damage.
I have yet to test 1 of my Disciples (healer) abilities but I'm sure when she takes advantage of a weakness it causes a heal to go off, I have heals going off on the ability on occasion I'm just not sure what causes it yet.

#8 Dificeman

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Posted 27 February 2008 - 02:38 PM

Bruxail, the original SWG did body-specific damage after a fashion. You have three health bars as it were... Health / Action / Mind. Each of these corresponded to the Torso / Arms and Legs / Head respectively. As certain combat classes (Teras Kasi Artist in my case) I could use certain attacks that would concentrate damage on specific parts. My favorite would be to use an attack called Nexu grin and focus my damage to their head and thus their mind pool since most people had a smaller mind pool than anything else. It was also harder to heal and buff that pool so it usually dropped them down pretty fast in PvP.

Obviously, that system is now gone, but the original was a nice way of doing things.

:arrow: On Topic:

We've talked about weapon skills improving defense against that weapon before and it's always made good sense IMO. I could live with a simple mechanic like every ten points in a weapon skills increased your defense vs. that weapon by 1. This is using a percent skill system soft capping at 100.

I do like the idea of the more complex system though. A skill vs. skill check like Grimmway has mentioned above. Maybe even incorporate which weapons are better vs. others. A swordman will have a decisive advantage against an equally skilled hand-to-hand figher in almost all instances and a polearm user will almost always get whooped by that same hand-to-hand fighter.


I was a TKM/SWM/FM For those unfamiliar with with SWG that means my build was that of A Teras Kasi master/ Swordsman Master / Fencer master. I think I had just a few skill points left over. SWG was skill based but it had a limit to how many skills you could learn. You could of course change these skills at any time. But meant puting time in to learn thenew skills. But I was always amazed at how many players that had been playing way longer then me did not realize that there were a few builds that would allow you mastery ove3 professions and not just 2. Sigh I really loved the old SWG. And to be honest from what i have read about this game that is what I am hoping to find again in many ways. Yes I knwo this wont be that game. I will not try to make it THAT game. But the diversity and the fun aspect of SWG was just great to me and That is what I hope this game brings with it.

BTW I do agree with you Grimmway I think it would be a very good idea to be incorprated into the game mechanics.

#9 Rock

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 07:05 AM

If they can implement such a system, it would be a true first. Amazing to think anyone is even suggesting it.

#10 Vanpry

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 08:56 AM

Very interesting idea.

#11 DeLang

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 12:04 PM

I can see the concept at play in PvP, but how would it work in PvE?

Many mobs are animals or fantasy creatures who don't use weapons or wear armor, so how do you translate the concept into that content area? A fun thing to contemplate and get creative with. :)

I do like the idea that crafting lends skill boosting or defensive boosting support to adventuring. Not just by creating products to be worn or used, but that the skill trained becomes applied in related but non-crafting activities.

Here's one implementation:
DeLang plays an adventure class which specializes in mental-based crowd control. DeLang also specializes in light armor trouser crafting. During a PvP battle, she combines both skills and uses her mind to remove the stitching of an opposing mage's bloomers, causing them to drop to the ground. This interrupts the mage and gives an AoE stun to the surrounding players.

#12 Jergis

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 02:12 PM

-I think you could do this by incorporating equipment into the equation and have it apply to PvP and PvE. Instead of rewarding you for knowing about yoru enemy's weapon, perhaps tie the defence bonus to your skill with your weapon. Could be integrated into the system automatically (for every 10 skill points in Weapon A you get a cumulative 1% increase in block/dodge while wielding Weapon A) or as part of a weapon's special or magical abilities (Hand of Korunda, Magical Longsword, +1 Total Defence bonus per 30 skill points in Weapon: Sword).

Realistically, being familiar with a longsword is similar to being familiar with a bastard sword is similar to being familiar with a machete is similar to being familiar with a barong is similar to being familiar with a gladius...i just don't see the knowledge of the enemy weapons as being as well done for me as the familiarity of wielding your weapon.

Example: Do i know how a Beretta 98 works, what the barrel length is, where they are manufactured, and how thin the grip panels are? Yes. Does that help me one gosh-darn bit in figuring out the best way to avoid being shot? No, not really, it is no different that avoiding damage from any other weapon.

Run! Hide! Cry for your momma!

Jergis, going back to work now.

#13 rysonue

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 09:28 PM

Well in terms of PvE the same concept would apply. Alot of enemies are also goblins or koblads wielding axes or dagger, and as for wolves and the like a knowledge of wolves would give you bonuses against wolves. I guess a crafter working with fr would know something about the animal its making coats out of.




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