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Why random families is without some control is a bad idea


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#1 lurker1

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 11:59 PM

Ok I did some thinking about this idea today and some of the other features that are slated to be in this game and what I liked and disliked about them. One of the systems that I am very curious about is the family system. I adds some very unique rp value to the game so at first I liked the idea of maybe a random system then I got to thinking more about it and the more I thought about it the more I started to dislike it.


Here is my reason, I love emersion and consider myself a Rper but over the course of the games that I have played I have found that the thing that makes these games fun and interesting or annoying and frustrated the most was the people that I would interact with in the game. It was a large part of my fun in EQ when I played it because I meet people that really made the game fun for me and I continued to play because I enjoyed playing with them pvp and other parts of the game. The same could be said about Daoc as well as Ao, Wow and many of the other games that I have played even in EVE the corp you joined made a huge difference on how fun the game was.

So the more I thought about this the more I hated the idea that I had no control over it not even a little, I know you can form guilds with friends but it just is not the same to me. Your family will be your first intro to the game the people in the game a first impression if you will and a more so to those who want to play with friends in the game. It can add to the rping that you do in game but also take away IMO. So lets say I buy the game make my character and get randomly put into a family that has people who think rping is dumb sure I can ignore them but then I miss out on a feature that could really enhance the game for me. I just don't like the idea of them being completly random with no player control at all just because its like that in RL doesn't mean that it has to be like that in the game as well.

Someone mention a value type system that you could answer that would give you better odds of being paired with like minded people. I love this idea it could simply be a few questions that your answer before you enter the game and depending on your answers it would place you in a family. The questions could be random generated so you wouldn't get the same questions all the time preventing re-rolls as the family you got was the family that character stayed in. This is just a basic extension of the idea that was posted on the board but I wanted to post why I would like to see it in the game and my views on the family system and I hope others will as well because I think is an important part of Cursades as well as the ideas they have for their advancement system.


Anyway I am not against the random idea in general. I think it is needed to a point to give familes some balance but I think there is a point when RL needs to be passed over and players should be given a chance to be in the same families as their friends and people who value the same things in the game as they do, being stuck with people that you don't get along with isn't fun it can really ruin the experiance itself.

Just my two cents..................................................

#2 Syndic

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 07:53 PM

Now I'm not argueing with your point, it certainly has it's merits. I know players out there would like to play with like minded players and what you suggest leans towards doing that. I personally see that as the area of guilds though.

Personally what I would be afraid of is something pointed out in the article on RPGVault

The current design does not allow for characters to act as parents, or to leave families and form their own. This opens up too many doors and allows for planned family domination; something we want to steer clear of.


I would hate for families to be setup in such a way that the "elite" all gravitate towards one or two families, any version of filtering people will lead to this. I think that would spoil the family system more than being placed in with a few rotten eggs. Your idea does lead more to style of play, but there are an infinite number of styles out there. As someone once pointed out in another article you may say you roleplay, but that may not be the same definition as someone else who says they roleplay.

I see your point about the oppurtunity to be lumped with a bunch of people that do nothing but spoil your playtime, I just think that with the games I've played that can happen even without families.

The worst thing that happens for me, as I see it, is I leave the family channel (or hide it if i can't) and join a guild and just ignore that my family ever existed.

#3 Resetgun

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 04:58 AM

I think that random families are going to be great way to introduce players for others totally strangers. It is going to be great way to create new contacts that are outside your normal playing contacts. And like in real life, you can't choose your sisters or cousins - you just need to endure pain caused by them :lol:

However, I agree that you have some good points - like having family that doesn't want to roleplay and risk of allkind kids who are just trying to make other players life miserable. But in other hands, if players are choosen randomly to family, there is allways going to be other players in same family that are roleplaying.

#4 Kabooki

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Posted 27 September 2006 - 09:08 AM

The thing with families is that we want to keep it so that players can

#5 Zheng

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 05:41 AM

Lurker1's got a point here in a few areas, but that one I'll touch upon is the RP aspect. I also like to roleplay about 2/3 of the time I play an MMO and find that other non-RPer's can ruin, in seconds, what it's taken art departments and writters and other DEV departments years to create. You cannot escape this in an MMO, you just can't. You can, however, do your best to try and pick a server that is either designated a RP server or is rumored or has an unofficial tag on it for that.

This is where families come into play. It would be nice to have, instead of a RP servers...RP families. A few of them. Again, within those families it could be totally random which one you were put into, if that's where we're headed with the selection process. If it's more of a question-based thing, just add whether or not you'd like to RP into the questions to answer.

I believe RP famlies could add a serious dimension to enjoyment for those of us that like to be immersed. /shrug


Thanks for reading.

#6 Syndic

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 04:32 PM

I see Roleplaying as being about the only major thing that would warrent being placed in a certain family, but as mentioned before players versions of roleplay vary greatly. Just wondering how a RP family would go inside a world of others that don't RP so much if at all, but I'm sure RPers have had to deal with that through many games.

As a passing mention on RP dedicated servers, in the past I have heard mention that these types of servers not only attract RPers but those hardcore players who like less competition, thus the servers attract certain undesirables (particularly in a RP sense). Even had cases of players playing on regular servers becuase it was a nicer environment to RP in.
I apologise for the off topic comment, more of a tangent actually :)

#7 Grimmway

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Posted 31 December 2006 - 01:32 PM

Interesting RP aspect - but with that, even within your immediate family, people's personalities are very different. So the varying degrees of RP would, IMHO, reflect just that.

Grimmway

#8 lurker1

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 02:47 AM

I didn't respond to this thread because there really wasn't much more to say IMO. I am sure they will come up with some solution that will allow or at the very least give you a possible chance of becoming a member of a family of like minded players.I have to trust DA on this and I do more then other game designers in the industry. So I'll just wait to see what they have in mind and then save my comments when I know more about it.

On a side note about the RP servers I have never really been a supporter of them even through I have played on a few(only if they had some sort of PVP). I have always seen them as a big sign that says here are all those gay rpers come bug them. Anyway I've gotten really good over the years at ignoring people who try to irritate me or finding ways to iritating them back till they leave me alone *shrugs*

Just my two cents.....................

#9 dice

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 05:36 AM

Heh.

Would be awesome if players could enlist in a town as Guardsmen or police. Whenever a player is totally out of character, these RP guardsmen have the right (and ability) to drag them off to a lunatic asylum where they have to stay for a couple of days until they achieve a more stable condition ;-)

On a related note, it would be awesome if Crusade allowed illicit activities... stealing, drug running, protection gangs etc. Player based organised crime would rock, and would certainly make me seriously consider choosing a stealth based character.

Why go to all the hard work of killing the Dragon Of Insanely Awesome Power in order to obtain the Ten Teeth Of Dragon Fury when I can just nick them off the small-brained sword-swinger who got lucky?

But of course, people are going to know that I didn't kill said dragon myself, so I need a fence, one who won't rat me out. That fence will need to have contacts in the field of magic; clients who will buy goods without asking silly questions in regards to legitimacy, ownership and due legal process.

<wipes the drool from his chin>
Sorry about that. I get carried away sometimes ;-)

Cheers,
dice.

#10 Zheng

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 07:17 AM

RP Guardsmen... that's a brilliant idea. For an RP server, there's gotta be some kind of policing. I was playing Vanguard earlier today and I ran across a lvl 18 (not easy to get to) fella named Asshumper. Yeah.

When I approached a conversation about his name very respectfully and inquisitively he saw nothing wrong with it.

:twisted: RP Police :twisted:

#11 Syndic

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 03:51 PM

Yeah I would have to say player naming is one of those things that really gets on my nerves more than most things. Just because it's a game doesn't mean you have to be infantile.

The problem with a guardsmen type role, who decides what is roleplay and what is not? Every player has a different view. People would find what they were doing one day was fine the next they are being persecuted all because there is a different guard on duty.

#12 lurker1

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 06:15 PM

Stupid names like above drive me nuts, and you see it alot on a pvp server. The problems is I don't think it will ever be solved and having player police isn't the answer. I know this may sound bad and I mean no disrespect to the people on this board but I don't have that much faith in my fellow gamer :( (or people in general for that matter) sad to say.

I think the lore of the game should define the rp style in the game and that it should be up to the designers of the game to come up with an idea that will gently push people in that direction, and give them more the just a hand slap when they choose to step outside the bounds of the lore but still give them the choice to do so.


I just think that players should be held accountable for their actions in game much like they are in the RL but it will never happen*shrugs*

RP servers are not the answer, nor is policing them it just another way to avoid the real problem IMHO


Just my two cents.........

#13 dice

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 08:24 PM

Obviously, a council of some sort (of RP gamers) who are in control of some town/province would have to agree to a set of rules/regulations for that area.

If people in that area don't conform to the rules, then RP police can arrest them. There could be an appeals process (not difficult - a button saying "I appeal!"

Members of the council could be appointed as "Appeal Judges" and decide whether or not the arrest was legal. If it was, then increase the sentence for wasting the judges time. If it wasn't, then dock the pay of the police officer (to stop people on power trips).

You might say "That's a joke! The number of people getting arrested and appealing would be huge. Pretty soon, the RP players would be doing nothing but policing, or answering appeals!"

I disagree. It acts as a deterrent. After a while, people stop doing the non-RP things, they stop naming themselves silly names, etc; because they don't want to lose game time. I'm not saying that they will instantly become big time RPers, but they will respect the setting of the game more if there are consequences to ignoring it.

Now if only the dev's weren't so intent on making it fun for the average player - and you will agree with me when I say that the average player doesn't want to worry about police in a game. Sigh.

Cheers,
dice.

#14 Dificeman

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 03:07 PM

Hmm I am not very big on Rp'ing myself, though i have nothing against those that do. My usual game name is just as it is here - Dificeman. I like to play games to have fun .. I do not play them to be forced to act out some fantasy based role dependent upon which game i choose to play. Now I do agree with something being done abut names people come up with.Mythangbigger, 500k versions of Legolas, Stabbingbutt, etc are really inapproppriate for any type of game.. Ok maybe the legolas thing isnt so bad, but If you ever played LOTRO then you know how it can be seeing several hundred people per server named every possible way.

Now to the Family thing - at first I thought this might be a cool idea until I realized there is asolutely no control at all. My wife and I play together, and I'm certain we would not want to be in seperate families. For a lot of people, this prolly isnt game breaking, but for folks like my wife and I it may well be. We will see how the devs handle this, but if there is no chance of us being in the same family, then it is likely we would continue to look elsewhere for something that gives us what we are looking for in a game.

I do have a suggestion, though, that might help and also cut back on the chance of power gaming dominating. How about having it so that say person A) creates a character. They go into the world and are randomly put into a family. Now make it so that person A can ( only one time per character history) be given some kind of code to be used during character creation. Now person B can enter this code during their character creation and be put into the same family. Restrictions: person B) is now tied into person A) in that they cannot receive any type of code for anyone else during the life history of that character. This would give pretty close to the same type of security agaisnt power gamers that you are currently looking for. The difference is RL couples or RL friends still have the ability to truely be together in the game.
Some folks may argue that with this in effect a power gamer could just keep re-rolling till they got the family they wanted, then invite a friend. Then the next person keeps re-rolling til they end up in the same family and get someone else in. But well that possiblity is there for that type of exploit anyways.

#15 Chyra

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 06:38 PM

I have had a little bit of concern on how this will actually play out too. I'm envisioning folks creating characters, logging in to see if they are in the "right" family, deleting character and starting over.

Or guilds that want to grief a specific family by creating alts and doing the above until they get in.

I play with my spouse as well but so far I'm not too concerned about being in different families, unless we're required to do different quests/activities because of it. I have just viewed it as a way to make you feel part of a group right from the beginning.

#16 Syndic

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 09:08 PM

Just remember just becuase your in different families doesn't lessen how you can do anything else together (unless you play different sides). I think you'd have the chance of it being even better being in different families. You'd broaden the amount of people you both have close proximity to, your adventuring together while similar you'd experience different dramas for each family you belong to allowing the both of you to get involved in more of the world than any single player can.

I know guilds are the same but I found for a breif time in EQ2 my friends and I were in different guilds, we had so much more going on in the game to talk about and get us really into the game than when we were in the same guild. Being in different guilds did lower our ability to play with each other in any way either.

I agree with the RP thing, I play a game I know it's a game and I just can't bring myself to "play" like I'm a real elf.

#17 S0ulb0und

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 01:30 AM

Everything else aside its been said on several occasions that if you don't want to then you don't have to interact with your family at all. of course you can interact with your family then 5 minutes later go outside your housing (if that comes into play) and go adventure with your friend or companion. if you're playing with a close friend or spouse and yall are in different families then the most that can happen is that both of your contacts doubles due to more social opportunities with the double-the-family interactions.

#18 lostheaven77

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 03:00 PM

I d like to add my 2 cents into the Family thing , I m not a rp , but if I was wouldnt build my story until I made my character , and saw the world I was going to be involved. Let me give me a example :

Louis L'Amour wrote a book series about a family called the Sackettes , they were tough SOBs , you born into the family you got protection and love. In one of my favorite books about a range war , a Sackette distant cousin was being wiped out by a baron , the Sackettes showed up in force , even the black sheep members to fight.

This is how I envision the family system working, if there is enough reason and enough randomness you ll get people of so much varied backgrounds , that players will bond and work together. The social element is very strong in MMORPG , if the community develops anything like the current niche markets , you ll see PVPer, Non Pvper , crafters , Rper and others bond together for a common goal.

Human beings are very social , while I think it would be cool to make your own family that would be no different guild building or "PE gym dodgeball picks". The randomness will be a strength , and key to the social element. You ll get anti social types , and people who dont make friends well have instant access to pool of supporters.

If there is a carrot , for being a strong family , you ll see a level of interaction which would rival the MUD days.

It ll be alot of fun to grow up with a ready made family , especialy those of us who dont get into guild building or dont have time to find party members. You ll be solving alot of issues off the bat.

#19 Syndic

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 04:38 PM

Well said Lost.

One of the points I've been trying to get across is it is going to be alot more "bonding" to have a varied family. Having a family of all blacksmiths isn't going to be much fun, especially when you need an adventurer or a woodworker around to help. I've realised that it's a point of view, the examples of those that want similar styled members of a family are looking from outside the family at it's reputation, how is that family known eg. the Johnsons are the best blacksmiths in the world etc. Where as I see the family from the inside, I want a blacksmith, woodworker, adventurer, fletcher, casters, fighters, priests in my family to help strengthen what the family can do. Does the family need a reputation? No, but if that reputation is a kind friendly bunch who help out those in need then that is more than I could hope for.

I know there are no families in current games but looking at guilds, people don't associate guilds with which ones are the best crafters, roleplayers or any particular class. I agree there is a leaderboard of raiding guilds and who is number 1, this is certainly something that is certainly more easily measured than anything else. Guilds get reputations for other things as well as just good/bad raiders, do they play well, help out strangers, kill steal, inconsiderate of others. When you see a guild name it conjures up past experiences and interactions with the guild, what the guild contains is the last thing on the list, how they interact with the rest of the world around them is what matters.

One would just hope that families would strive to improve their reputations, just would like a voting system that allows the family to disown a disruptive member whose only purpose is to destroy that reputation, or protect the family by hiding their name so any disruptive actions are not linked to the family. These would be majority votes by every member of the family.
Adrios - Syndic (Soldier), Kadden (Mage); Hokk - Thrawn (Ranger); Toskala - Nelina (Healer)
Family - Mitthrawnurodo (Talrok)

#20 zopyros

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 02:51 PM

I said on another board that personally I think that disowning should be done through a GM via ticket or w/e, and careful monitering of a situation. If not it allows a family to constantly band togethor to kick members out, and it becomes elitist, something that the random dropping could prevent. Having a GM moniter the disruptive player and allow a kick would be better, depending on the level of disruption, either the ticketer, or the offender could be placed in another family.

As far as the RP v PvP v PvE, etc... goes, I agree it would be nice to be able to pick an RP vs PvE vs PvP family, to some extent, but like said before, that's what guilds do. And while it contradicts what I said above, there's always /ignore playername. Yeah they may be family, they may call, but it doesn't mean you have to pick up the phone (I know, horrible, but I do it, and it works)




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