Jump to content


Photo

Death Penalty


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 mactorrin

mactorrin

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts

Posted 16 September 2009 - 10:56 AM

Forgive me if I missed this somewhere, searched and found nothing! Could be my search skills lol. Does this game have a death penalty or is that unknown? I am not a huge fan of the death gate. I prefer to fear death at least a little!!

Any info would be appreciated


Thanks

#2 Cerwyn

Cerwyn

    Patron

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 88 posts
  • LocationNHK Headquarters

Posted 16 September 2009 - 12:40 PM

the death penalty, if there is one will be minor, the loss of time is considered to be a penalty in and of itself. at least I seem to remember reading that in one of the faqs on this site.

#3 imrick

imrick

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 17 September 2009 - 08:45 PM

the death penalty, if there is one will be minor, the loss of time is considered to be a penalty in and of itself. at least I seem to remember reading that in one of the faqs on this site.


We firmly believe that the worst thing you can do is "steal" from a player's experience. For this reason, we are not adopting any "loss" mechanisms for death that would result in anything more than minor monetary and time delay adjustments.

Edited by imrick, 17 September 2009 - 08:47 PM.


#4 imrick

imrick

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 17 September 2009 - 08:48 PM

We firmly believe that the worst thing you can do is "steal" from a player's experience. For this reason, we are not adopting any "loss" mechanisms for death that would result in anything more than minor monetary and time delay adjustments.



#5 Royo

Royo

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 38 posts
  • LocationCharleston SC

Posted 20 September 2009 - 05:56 AM

I hope there is some kind of Risk vs Rewards then. I know most people hate it, but I feel without a good Risk vs Reward then the game becomes to easy.

Ahh the good ol days of EQ1 fear break! If you ever played EQ1 back in the day then you know what I am talking about. There was the chance you could loose your corpse if you did not know what you were doing. That made the game a challenge.

#6 Grixal

Grixal

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 21 September 2009 - 09:19 AM

I hope there is some kind of Risk vs Rewards then. I know most people hate it, but I feel without a good Risk vs Reward then the game becomes to easy.

Ahh the good ol days of EQ1 fear break! If you ever played EQ1 back in the day then you know what I am talking about. There was the chance you could loose your corpse if you did not know what you were doing. That made the game a challenge.


Amen

That is one of the features I liked about the early days of EQ. It tended to make people better players. Especially early in the game when no one had the ability to resurrect. You die, you eat the exp loss, and it was substantial.

I am not a fan of insubstantial penalties for deaths, it makes people lazy when they have no fear of dying in game.

#7 Cerwyn

Cerwyn

    Patron

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 88 posts
  • LocationNHK Headquarters

Posted 21 September 2009 - 10:53 AM

Amen

That is one of the features I liked about the early days of EQ. It tended to make people better players. Especially early in the game when no one had the ability to resurrect. You die, you eat the exp loss, and it was substantial.

I am not a fan of insubstantial penalties for deaths, it makes people lazy when they have no fear of dying in game.


I disagree, the time lost from getting back to where you died is a massive penalty in and of itself (assuming that there will be revival points of some sort) and having the ability to throw yourself at a new boss without fear of death penalties just to find out what kind of attacks it can do is a massive benefit to the player community. drastically increasing the rate at which knowledge is acquired and encouraging innovation in battle strategies (since you're more likely to try a new, seemingly stupid, strategy if you don't have to worry about losing xp or gear).

while its true that some players will become very reckless on a regular basis because of this, I don't think any of them will survive very far into the mid game when the res points start getting further and further from the dungeons, quest locations, etc. the boredom of constantly having to run back to the action will either encourage them to become better players or force them out of the game altogether. which is the same effect you're looking to get from more severe death penalties.

#8 Aradael

Aradael

    Servant

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 26 posts
  • LocationTempe, AZ

Posted 21 September 2009 - 04:08 PM

Naturally, there are two schools of thought when it comes to death in an MMO. While both have good and negative points, Alganon's focus is and always has been fun. Now, while many could make valid arguments that a lack of challenge can lead to a reduction of fun by making accomplishments feel trivialized, it's our hope that we, as designers, can create logical boss fights and group content that can be solved without blind death-runs and random testing. That way, when a player solves it with his or her friends without using a FAQ or asking someone else in the game, the feeling of overcoming that hurdle or solving that challenge will be genuine and not something we artificially had to fabricate by punishing poor play. As always, player feedback will be a useful tool for us to keep this goal in mind and on target.
Your life is your own, rise up and live it.

#9 mactorrin

mactorrin

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts

Posted 21 September 2009 - 06:44 PM

Naturally, there are two schools of thought when it comes to death in an MMO. While both have good and negative points, Alganon's focus is and always has been fun. Now, while many could make valid arguments that a lack of challenge can lead to a reduction of fun by making accomplishments feel trivialized, it's our hope that we, as designers, can create logical boss fights and group content that can be solved without blind death-runs and random testing. That way, when a player solves it with his or her friends without using a FAQ or asking someone else in the game, the feeling of overcoming that hurdle or solving that challenge will be genuine and not something we artificially had to fabricate by punishing poor play. As always, player feedback will be a useful tool for us to keep this goal in mind and on target.



#10 mactorrin

mactorrin

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts

Posted 21 September 2009 - 07:00 PM

I understand the arguments. I honestly favor the death penalty and yes I am another lover of eq1 and fear break ins.

I hear the loss of time as a penalty. Will it really be a loss of time? Will my body and gear stay where I died and I must work back to it?.....or will I finish a raid or quest and run into molten lava to die and go to a spawn point with all my gear and exp intact??? There is no time loss there! I save time by deathgating home.

Where will respawn points be? How are respawn points set? If its 30 seconds away that time loss is no penalty!! I guess what I am asking is a bit more detail!! What exactly will I lose as far as time goes? If I die and have no gear I agree thats a penalty. If I die and have a run of some distance thats a penalty.

Further, it sure makes the power to raise the dead a valuable tool to have. Are there player rezzes? Some games have rezzes but you can run back faster than the player can cast the spell lol.

Fun is fun but I hope death is at least not trivial!!

I think the game sounds great

Any chance there will be seperate rules servers? Maybe one with more severe death penalties for us crazy self punishing old schoolers? There is no Eq1 type game out there (challenge wise) Make a server like that and I bet they would join you in droves! $$$$$$

Edited by mactorrin, 21 September 2009 - 07:01 PM.


#11 Cerwyn

Cerwyn

    Patron

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 88 posts
  • LocationNHK Headquarters

Posted 21 September 2009 - 08:51 PM

i think that the time penalty will be very situational, since the most likely place for respawn points is in a town, and the distance to the dungeon will vary with which dungeon you were in.

that said, I do expect deathgating, and don't really see a problem with it. its not like walking home instead of teleporting (or deathgating) proves you're a better player, it just proves that you have more time to waste.

as I recall the healer interview (link can be found in class specific forum) said that healers would be able to resurrect, though it didn't give a clear indicator as to the level necessary to do so.

Edited by Cerwyn, 21 September 2009 - 08:54 PM.


#12 Royo

Royo

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 38 posts
  • LocationCharleston SC

Posted 28 September 2009 - 02:59 PM

Naturally, there are two schools of thought when it comes to death in an MMO. While both have good and negative points, Alganon's focus is and always has been fun. Now, while many could make valid arguments that a lack of challenge can lead to a reduction of fun by making accomplishments feel trivialized, it's our hope that we, as designers, can create logical boss fights and group content that can be solved without blind death-runs and random testing. That way, when a player solves it with his or her friends without using a FAQ or asking someone else in the game, the feeling of overcoming that hurdle or solving that challenge will be genuine and not something we artificially had to fabricate by punishing poor play. As always, player feedback will be a useful tool for us to keep this goal in mind and on target.


I see it that there is only so many ways that you can put a twist on things. Eventually you are going to run into a problem that you have done this or that before... Then what?

About the solving thing... That's fine that there are some people out there that will actually solve the problem/encounter on their own without using others strategies, but lets face it, there are probably more out there that will go in search for just such guides. Games have become to easy for a lack of a better word. There is no true Risk vs Reward anymore. So I have to walk back to the dungeon. You are not going to make this to stringent because you will then have people whining that it wastes too much time, just like most do with a death penalty like in EQ. Atleast in EQ there was true Risk vs Reward in an encounter. If you could not break Fear then you either tried with crappy gear or brought someone that knew how. If you did not do that, you better atleast know someone that could and was willing to help you get your body back.

I don't know, but to me the chance of beating something that could possibly cause me to loose my corpse is alot more rewarding then walking back and throwing myself at the mob until everyone decided it is too late and everyone packs up and goes home. Trust me, I have been on both sides of the coin (EQ and WoW). If it is too harsh to make it so that people can loose their corpses, then make sure to implement a way of getting it back like EQ did. Atleast this makes it so you have to have someone that can summon for the corpse. Atleast it still makes it so there is a chance that you can loose it.

Not to mention, something like this helps people to become better players. If you don't adapt, then you go home with nothing... Literally.

I really hope to see something like this added. Will I hold my breath, nope cause I know the road that games are going down now a days. I will adapt, but some of my fondest memories are of good ol EQ. Things like that are really hard to come by anymore.

Edited by Royo, 28 September 2009 - 03:01 PM.


#13 Bentwolf

Bentwolf

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts

Posted 28 September 2009 - 10:35 PM

Hi yall,

I think the best death penalty I have ever seen was Earth and Beyond. What happened was if you got incapacitated (basically dead cause ship blew up) then you went into xp debt where you would only earn 50% of the xp you normally would until the debt pool was paid off. This way no one would loose any xp and surely wouldn't loose a level. The debt pool increased as you gained levels.

Another thing is that even though it was a pain in the ass, I liked corpse runs like the ones on Ultima Online. It made your pulse go up a bit knowing that you might loose some of your gear to a NPC or all of it to a PC. Just didn't like them PKers.

I have to agree that loosing xp and/or levels would loose people in a hurry.

Just my two cents worth.

#14 Hasala

Hasala

    Crusader

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 345 posts
  • LocationWest Virginia, USA

Posted 29 September 2009 - 03:36 AM

The dev's have said they aren't going to take away from players so losing your corps or gear isn't going to happen as it stands now. I think a good compromise may be something like someone else mentioned. An exp debt. Once killed you have a choice of going back to get your corpse, get rezzed by priest and suffer no exp debt or rezz at the nearest rezz point and suffer a 25% reduction in the amount of xp you earn until it's paid off. The amount would be based on your current level, so the higher your level the longer it will take to pay back.

This would not take anything away from what you have already earned, just reduce the amount you earn for a bit. If you can make it back to your corpse or get rezzed by priest, then there would be no debt.

#15 Glarnak

Glarnak

    Prophet

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 142 posts

Posted 29 September 2009 - 07:34 AM

I hope there is some kind of Risk vs Rewards then. I know most people hate it, but I feel without a good Risk vs Reward then the game becomes to easy.

Ahh the good ol days of EQ1 fear break! If you ever played EQ1 back in the day then you know what I am talking about. There was the chance you could loose your corpse if you did not know what you were doing. That made the game a challenge.


ahh the good ole eq1 days..

it made the game a challenge and helped building a stronger community. You could hardly be a bad player with a bad rep, just to die and find none would help you rez because of your behavior.. That and the initial loss of xp really kept people in check and made people somewhat more sensitive towards others.
Glarnak - Soldier
Tleran - Healer

#16 Synthetick

Synthetick

    Prophet

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 116 posts
  • LocationTulsa, OK

Posted 29 September 2009 - 07:46 AM

ahh the good ole eq1 days..

it made the game a challenge and helped building a stronger community. You could hardly be a bad player with a bad rep, just to die and find none would help you rez because of your behavior.. That and the initial loss of xp really kept people in check and made people somewhat more sensitive towards others.


I think the death penalty really depends on the MMO in question. I loved the old-school death penalties, but like I said, depending on the game, I think lighter penalties are okay.

Example: Back when BC had just launched for WOW a group of my pretty close friends decided to reroll. I leveled a bit faster and cleared Kara with a few other guilds, all the runs were quick, easy, and smooth. When my actual guild got there, tho, things just didn't tend to work out. A lot was class selection, a lot was people speed leveling their characters and not having to foresight on how to play their class in the raid scenario, a lot of it was goofing around and mis communications, but we wiped on virtually every boss multiple times, Moroes (sp?) we really had a hard time with. If experience penalties would of been incorporated we probably would of had to stop after the first few times instead of finally being able to achieve victory. We weren't hardcore players, we raided one night a week, and we wanted to make it count.

My favorite death penalty in an MMO by far was Asheron's Call and Asheron's Call 2's vitae. Every death you were temporarily weakened by 5% until you earned a small chunk of experience back -- it could rack up to what, 35% (been years, tho, I might be wrong on the number) and then it capped out.

It made it so you tried to avoid death because of the penalty, but when you did die it never made you want to ragequit out, and it was easily worked off.

I'm a player who sometimes runs into areas where I deserve to die, and upon res (if it's a corpse-run game, or body retrieval), would rack up multiple deaths attempting to get my body or move locations. Maybe I've been pampered by soft penalties in recent MMOs, but at the point I would suffer XP loss to the point of losing levels (which happened frequently to me in EQ, haha), I don't think I'd enjoy my gameplay half as much now as I did back then.

#17 aleonia

aleonia

    Deity

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 509 posts

Posted 29 September 2009 - 09:14 AM

Well, I suppose a good solution would be that there would be no exp loss when in a raid scenario. Not sure how feasible this would be though.
Aldarne Balmordae - Talrok Ranger on Adrios
Jalnarae & Rendarnai Balmordae - Talrok Magus & Soldier on Adrios

#18 Zoie

Zoie

    Servant

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 25 posts
  • LocationAustralia

Posted 01 October 2009 - 10:21 PM

Idk I see that xp and monitary loss for death is a littl unfair. Even self destructive, Not everyone is a great player some people just want to play for fun.
Things happen outside of peoples control. death through lag or slow net and other outside factors come to mind.
Sure if you have the fastest net the best pc and the best reaction times and you are a great player then the xp loss you might experince from one or maybe no deaths over a long period of time is nominal and it is exciting when you get somewere were you can cut it fine and push yourself to your limits.
For some its not that simple and sure for you its a bit of risk and fun to loose xp for others they would go out the back door with xp loss.

For some people its just having bad net or old pcs. They die and cant help it no matter how skilled a player they are. Should they not be able to play because of this? Not all of us can have the best of everything but still we like to contribute and play along. Some of us just like to play we dont have to be great and hey if it wasnt for the not so great players how would we recognise you elete guys?
I am glad the developers have chosen not to take xp on death. It makes it to easy you say, not enough challenge? Maybe the developers could add a pay per use "xp loss on death amulet" for you adrenalin junkies so that you can get your old EQ rush you could loose xp take armor damage and pay a gold penalty as well. When you're in the mood you could just pop it on and take your chances. mmm i wonder how many of you would get one?

#19 Glarnak

Glarnak

    Prophet

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 142 posts

Posted 02 October 2009 - 12:45 PM

Perhaps so, but as the xp loss disappeared from eq1 (more or less, they made it a joke) eq1 saw a virtual invasion of "CENSORED" players.. Not good at your class? Are you a nice person? then we would help you. If we didn't, then what would it say about us as a community?

If you wernt a nice person, would anyone help you? I would dare say no. We had a great community on TZ, brought together because grouping was the way to level and learn your chars strength and weaknesses. And even if you weren't a good player, you had to be polite and be on your best behavior.

What I am saying is, the community was great, due to the forced leveling in groups, and the penalty you would encoure by dying, was often diverted by your grp mates and or friends. All in all, a great way of doing it. in my opinion.

That said, i dislike wow and others weak approach to the xp penalty. What can you learn from it if you don't have a consequence to your action? :)

Just my cent on it. :)
Glarnak - Soldier
Tleran - Healer

#20 Royo

Royo

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 38 posts
  • LocationCharleston SC

Posted 02 October 2009 - 03:07 PM

Perhaps so, but as the xp loss disappeared from eq1 (more or less, they made it a joke) eq1 saw a virtual invasion of "CENSORED" players.. Not good at your class? Are you a nice person? then we would help you. If we didn't, then what would it say about us as a community?

If you wernt a nice person, would anyone help you? I would dare say no. We had a great community on TZ, brought together because grouping was the way to level and learn your chars strength and weaknesses. And even if you weren't a good player, you had to be polite and be on your best behavior.

What I am saying is, the community was great, due to the forced leveling in groups, and the penalty you would encoure by dying, was often diverted by your grp mates and or friends. All in all, a great way of doing it. in my opinion.

That said, i dislike wow and others weak approach to the xp penalty. What can you learn from it if you don't have a consequence to your action? :)

Just my cent on it. :)


You can learn how to throw yourself at the phat lewt until you run out of time...

I know everyone is entitled to their opinion and do not want it to sound like I am trying to enforce mine on anyone, But like a few have mentioned, these harsh penalties do tend to make the community come closer.

With the fear of either loosing levels, your corpse or some other form of harsh punishment, it made you think things out before you just jump headlong into a fight. It makes you think... Do I have all my ducks in a row so that I can lead my guild through successfully, Do we as a guild have a contingency plan if something goes wrong so that we can get our bodies back, or my favorite... Do people actually understand how to play their class and know what is expected of them so we do not have to deal with the first two options.

It all comes back I think to the community. I can not recall anyone loosing their body unless they just did not want to get it back.

Hell I remember pulling a 14 hour night in WoW raiding because we had nothing to loose other than some coins on death due to a repair bill.. Not a very good Risk vs Reward if you ask me. I just think that with such a penalty people become closer and willing to work with each other more. Not too mention that people get better at playing.

Things happen outside of peoples control. death through lag or slow net and other outside factors come to mind.
Sure if you have the fastest net the best pc and the best reaction times and you are a great player then the xp loss you might experince from one or maybe no deaths over a long period of time is nominal and it is exciting when you get somewere were you can cut it fine and push yourself to your limits.
For some its not that simple and sure for you its a bit of risk and fun to loose xp for others they would go out the back door with xp loss.


Been there and have been on the receiving end of just such a thing while I was playing EQ. Did that stop me.. nope. I just could not attend some raids with my guild, but then again, if the coding is top notch a lot of these problems should be no problem now a days. Unless of course your just playing a game with such high specs that you know your computer can not handle it.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users