27 replies to this topic

[Therian]

With all due respect to those that consider themselves hardcore or even 'serious' raiders...


raiding isnt as hard as it's made out.

granted, I havent raided much in WoW since Wrath of The Lich King was released, but in the raids I've done, I've seen that nothing has really changed in the way they work.

myth #1 You must play 20-40 hours a week to be a good raider.

wrong, I have seen 12yr olds with only a few hours a night get full epic gear raiding 2-3 nights a week. you just have to decide you'd rather go with a group of 10 or 25 than do anything else.

myth #2 Raiding is hard work and requires hours of preparation and research.

wrong, chances are, your raid leader and assistant already know everything they need to run the raid with success... all you need to do is 3 things...
1) show up ON TIME, with enough supplies to fight without going anywhere (food, potions, etc.)
2) listen to the directions you are given by the leader(s), and follow them.
3) pay attention. (there is a time to joke, talk, etc. -during the explanation of a fight is NOT one of them.)

Myth #3 'your gear isnt good enough'
LIES!! most group instance gear drops are designed to start raiding with... 90% of the time, when people tell you your gear isnt good enough... it's because they just want to rush through a fight and they want people who are overgeared for those encounters for a quick kill.

Myth #4 'you must know the raid encounters'
see myth 2, see myth 3 (they dont want to take time to explain fight and answer question)


So... follow myth #2 above and have fun...

oh yes, 1 more thing...

Truth #1 'you must have vent/teamspeak/voice chat'
yes, yes, and yes... technically, maybe not... but do yourself a favor and get it... you dont have to talk but you must listen to instructions and as fights go down, you'll need the fast feedback.
trying to type during an encounter = wipe

[llucid]

Myth #1
I think 20-40 hours dedicated a week for 20 people to figure a zone out is needed, once it's on farm status may 5-6 hours a week for all zones, depending on how many there are.
Myth #2
I have raided in EQ2, AOC and WOW,I have only been playing WOW since WOTLK came out but the week ulduar was releases Tankspot had videos up on most of the fights, Deadly boss mods had timers for all boss fights. i hated that the fights were alrady figured out for me before i had even entered the zone. Sure I could delete those mods and ignore those website, but why. If it's there i'm going to use it.
When i was playing EQ2 and AOC guilds did not want to share boss timers or any strats. In order to find that information parses had to be searched with information and trial and error from pull to pull until you figured out all aspects of the fight. yes usually this fell on 1 or 2 people, I was usually one of them, but that was part of the fun of the fight, when you finally cleared a zone you knew you did it on your own as a guild without any outside help. Granted once you figure out the fight though Myth #2 goes into effect, at least until there is a new zone.
Myth #3
this is only true if it is a progression raid and too many people don't have the correct gear.
Myth #4
I agree here this is an excuse to not want to repeat instructions.

Truth #1
I gree here as well, I can't even solo and type at the same time, i'd much rather use ventrillo for everything.

[Drakynn]

Myth #1

If you want to learn a raid instance with a completely inexperienced group and want to cut down the amount of weeks it takes to get it on farm then yes you need to invest that kind of game time.Once your group has the instance on farm then it can be run in anywhere from 3-6 hours.If your toon is being run through a raid instance by an otherwise experienced raid group then he/she will experience the farmed Instance experience and can be geared up quickly.

This is often done in guilds to gear up a replacement when they lose a raider to real life concerns or they leave the game.Or to gear up people's alts or to in fact create alt raiders for a higher instance requiring better gear.The guild in question will run the new raider through the lower instances with raiders that out gear that instance and know it like the back of their hands.

Myth #2

Again what your saying is true if your running with a group that already has that content on farm.But the more inexperienced people you have in the raid the less true your argument is.Reading a tactical rundown of a boss fight or having it explained to you is not equal to successfully carrying it out.You have to experience things to understand what you've read and a lot of the time you then have to make adjustments to this "strategy" guide
to accommodate your raid;s class makeup and the relative skill of the players involved in carrying actions out.

As to your enumerated things you need to do...yes these are things you should do out of courtesy to everyone else in the raid and will help things go smoother.But they do not equal automatic win.

Myth #3

True if your talking about the first few set of raids,gear to start riding the Raid power creep train does drop in single group instances and is part of the progression.But later raids will have DPS and Heal check bosses i.e bosses that require a certain amoutn of DPS in a time limit to be done or the raid will wipe and heal intensive Bossfights that require the healers to be able to keep up with healing the whole raid without losing many if any people or there will be a wipe.These are gear checks as you need to have a decently geared raid group from the previous raid content to pass.

But I will agree some people will exaggerate the gear needed for a particular instance to try make things easier for themselves,but hey there are selfish asshats in every part of life virtual and real.

Myth #4

it can be used as an excuse but if your in a group learning an instance then once more it's common courtesy to have done some research yourself before going on your first raid with them.But a good raid leader will explain the fight again anyway if there are new people in the raid to make sure and too impart where they may vary from the written strategies.

Truth #1

those things do make things go smoother,but one or two people without vent isn't a big deal just a minor inconvenience

[Twoboxer]

Great topic, with at least some "truth" in all expressed here.

If you play your class well, have good situational awareness, have reasonable gear, knowledgable leadership, listen well in (eg) Vent, then even a rookie should do well.

Problem is:

- most people do not play their class well, since levelling has taught them very little about the play styles required for raiding. EG, great solo/duo/group levelling doesn't teach the class interactions required for raiding.

- most raid rookies do not have good situational awareness. And once again, basic levelling normally doesn't punish you for simple positional or lack-of-buff mistakes.

- reasonable gear for group fights is usually far different from the specific resist gear needed to stay on your feet in raid scripts.

- knowledgable leadership depends on the game, the availability of walkthroughs on the web (WoW=many, EQ2= many early, few later on), the Guild you joined, and whether the specific script is on farm or not.

- most raid rookies often cannoit understand what they are being asked to do, because they have not done it before and it makes no sense to them. Or they are as AFK as they were when grouping. Or the cat hits the keyboard, the baby needs feeding, etc

So, yeah, raiding can be easy for rookies and not require high dedication.

Except when its not.

[melanieshaman]

there is only ONE truth that need be stated...






























Raiding is BORING!
that is all

[Twoboxer]

there is only ONE truth that need be stated...
Raiding is BORING!
that is all

Nah! You're thinking of Crafting.

[Danj]

Drakynn nailed it. Not to belittle Therian, but it's obvious he hasn't done much raiding, especially of new content. The old 40 man raids were easy. Show up, don't die, do your job. The newer 25 man raids are much harder. You can slack on them once you've hit a certain gear level and know the fights.

Gear is important. There are bosses where you have to sustain 80,000 total raid DPS to beat the enrage timer. Assuming everyone is at the top of their game, max dps is limited to the gear you have. There are other bosses where your situational awareness and/or timing is more important than your gear. But you have to be ready for all of it.  

Prepping 20-40 hours? That's a bit of an exaggeration. To prepare for a raid I either have to get the materials or the money for: Potions, foods, and other expendable items, enchants for new gear, which I only need to do once, but is -very- expensive, money for repairs, since I can rack up 120 gold repair bills(on leather armor, plate is even worse!). That can be as much as 12-15 hours or realistically, about 4-6 hours once I've gotten my gear set. Remember though, you're always trying to get new, better gear, and I'm doing up to 5 separate instances in a single week.  

Or in other words, yes raiding is easy, once you've done all the really hard stuff.
Also, being a good raider is more work too. What you described in myth #2 is the absolute -minimum-. People who just show up, don't know the fights, and have the minimum expendables are the nameless grunts of raiding. Worse yet are the people who won't do the newer fights til they are on farm status since they don't want to do the prep work, or spend the money on repairs. You shouldn't expect others, even the raid leader, to do all the work first.

Furthermore, with this expansion WoW has enabled hard modes in raiding. By doing the raid a certain way, you can make it harder, with better rewards. So, if you choose, you can always be challenged, always face that level of difficulty that you faced when you first started.

WoW learned from their previous raids, and made it more challenging and fun for raiders than it used to be.

Alganon, mind you, is learning from Wow.

[Drox]

Or you could play a healer and have everyone kiss your butt no matter what.

[Berek]

Or you could play a healer and have everyone kiss your butt no matter what.

Hey, that rhymes! I like it .

[melanieshaman]

Nah! You're thinking of Crafting.

I rather enjoy crafting..although i have to say i did do MC and Ony last night..mc in under an hour and Ony in under 10 minutes..now THAT was fun! LMAO

[Danj]

Or you could play a healer and have everyone kiss your butt no matter what.

Pff. I play a rogue. We don't get no steenking heals. Healer in rogue speak means 'bait'  :tongue:

Though with dual spec, not pulling your weight as a healer means one of the pallies, druids, shaman, or shadow priests switches to their heal offspec, and we simply pull in another dps'er off the reserve list, or let you switch to your dps offspec. We'll do this on easy fights to give the new healers some experience.

Even though I know you were joking, my guild has actually had some issues with healing prima donnas demanding more gear and compensation or they would quit in the middle of the raid.  They are generally asked once if they are joking, if not immediately /gkicked. That hasn't happened since before BC though.

[Therian]

Myth #1
I think 20-40 hours dedicated a week for 20 people to figure a zone out is needed, once it's on farm status may 5-6 hours a week for all zones, depending on how many there are.
Myth #2
I have raided in EQ2, AOC and WOW,I have only been playing WOW since WOTLK came out but the week ulduar was releases Tankspot had videos up on most of the fights, Deadly boss mods had timers for all boss fights. i hated that the fights were alrady figured out for me before i had even entered the zone. Sure I could delete those mods and ignore those website, but why. If it's there i'm going to use it.

your #2 just confirmed why #1 is a myth. at least for 90% of raiders. most all the fights have been figured out on the public test realm or in beta... only a handful of people spend any real amount of time in prep for encounters... the rest only have to show up and listen.

When i was playing EQ2 and AOC guilds did not want to share boss timers or any strats. In order to find that information parses had to be searched with information and trial and error from pull to pull until you figured out all aspects of the fight. yes usually this fell on 1 or 2 people, I was usually one of them, but that was part of the fun of the fight, when you finally cleared a zone you knew you did it on your own as a guild without any outside help. Granted once you figure out the fight though Myth #2 goes into effect, at least until there is a new zone.

yeah I can remember huge guild fights in eq over raiding & people leaving for other guilds after gearing up, learning the fights etc.

I dont miss the fights, but I miss the 'figuring it out yourself' part.
I frequently tell some of my hardcore rading friends, when they insist an encounter has to be done a specific way... "there is usually more than 1 right way to accomplish something".
it's too bad there are so many raiders convinced that there is only 1 right way (usually whatever way was used the first time to kill the boss)

[Therian]

Except when its not.

That also applies to the most highly geared and talented players.

I think 'follow instructions' and 'pay attention' are the two most broken 'rules' in a raid...

...and the largest cause of wipes.

[Therian]

there is only ONE truth that need be stated...

Raiding is BORING!
that is all

Now you sound like my wife. she hates to raid and loves PVP... which I hate most times.

Raiding is enjoyable for those that dont mind taking there time and working together to take down an opponent that is obviously overpowered against you.
being able to take 10-25 people and work together, with the right strategy, and with the right timing, and take down a mob that can only be classified as truly 'elite' (aka: rotten sob) can be an incredibly exhilarating experiance. add to that the random chance of getting a really awesome peice of gear, add to that the social interaction of those same 10-25 people having fun at the same time...

well, raiding isnt for eveyone but it can be a really enjoyable time for those who like it.

[Therian]

Nah! You're thinking of Crafting.

are you kidding? I've made some of the best elite gear with crafting... not too mention some really nice cash.

and tracking down everything you need to craft a particular item can be as intensive and enjoyable as a raid.

[Therian]

Drakynn nailed it. Not to belittle Therian, but it's obvious he hasn't done much raiding, especially of new content. The old 40 man raids were easy. Show up, don't die, do your job. The newer 25 man raids are much harder. You can slack on them once you've hit a certain gear level and know the fights.

correct, I havent raided past 25 man OS (2 drakes up) , so no ulduar loot for me.
I also havent done all the 5 man instances, on normal or heroic.
oh yeah, and these have been done on my tank as off tank.
and without being an expert on any of the fights.
also.. though I am admittedly not a raiding expert. I have a few friends who are, including 2 in the same household... so I know how much time they put in. trust me, it isnt that hard.

Gear is important. There are bosses where you have to sustain 80,000 total raid DPS to beat the enrage timer. Assuming everyone is at the top of their game, max dps is limited to the gear you have. There are other bosses where your situational awareness and/or timing is more important than your gear. But you have to be ready for all of it.

gear is important, I never said it wasnt.
I said it's importance is overstated.
obviously you cant use blues from a normal 5 man instance to do ulduar, if you tried you wouldnt get past the trash... but you can use it to do the raids it's designed for. thats why its called 'progression'. using gear from 1 instance to do the next higher instance, and so on.
many people (usually those farming tokens) dont want anyone else they are very well geared because they want a quick kill.

Prepping 20-40 hours? That's a bit of an exaggeration. To prepare for a raid I either have to get the materials or the money for: Potions, foods, and other expendable items, enchants for new gear, which I only need to do once, but is -very- expensive, money for repairs, since I can rack up 120 gold repair bills(on leather armor, plate is even worse!). That can be as much as 12-15 hours or realistically, about 4-6 hours once I've gotten my gear set. Remember though, you're always trying to get new, better gear, and I'm doing up to 5 separate instances in a single week.

thank you for confirming the '20-40 hours a week' as a myth.
also, 5 mans and some raids in wow can be completed very quickly once you know the fights.

Or in other words, yes raiding is easy, once you've done all the really hard stuff.
Also, being a good raider is more work too. What you described in myth #2 is the absolute -minimum-. People who just show up, don't know the fights, and have the minimum expendables are the nameless grunts of raiding. Worse yet are the people who won't do the newer fights til they are on farm status since they don't want to do the prep work, or spend the money on repairs. You shouldn't expect others, even the raid leader, to do all the work first.

I agree, you shouldnt expect others to do all the work first... but that's the way it's heading. a new instance is on test realm, stat's are up already when it's live and the work is mostly done.
also...lets face it, if you showed up to a raid and tried to question how you were told to do it, you'd be bounced... so most times you dont have to do any research at all... because no matter what you bring in way of strats... the leader and assist's have decided how it will go.
yes, knowing the fights is very nice... but not a requirement most times... fights are explained and provided you PAY ATTENTION and know how to play your class, you'll do fine.

Furthermore, with this expansion WoW has enabled hard modes in raiding. By doing the raid a certain way, you can make it harder, with better rewards. So, if you choose, you can always be challenged, always face that level of difficulty that you faced when you first started.

this just basically make it a harder raid, it doesnt really change anything as far as what we've talked about above... it just means it's higher in the progression.

WoW learned from their previous raids, and made it more challenging and fun for raiders than it used to be.

I agree, and at the same time they made it easier for everyone to be able to raid. it's part of their new game philosophy of wanting more people to see the content they worked so hard to create. which only serves to support my statements the raiding isnt as hard as people think.

Alganon, mind you, is learning from Wow.

actually, I think Alganon learned from several games.. what to do, and what not to do. it sounds like a really nice step up from some other games.

[Therian]

Or you could play a healer and have everyone kiss your butt no matter what.

1 of my toons is an 80 priest.

they only kiss your butt if you can keep them alive.

[Therian]

Pff. I play a rogue. We don't get no steenking heals. Healer in rogue speak means 'bait' :tongue:

Though with dual spec, not pulling your weight as a healer means one of the pallies, druids, shaman, or shadow priests switches to their heal offspec, and we simply pull in another dps'er off the reserve list, or let you switch to your dps offspec. We'll do this on easy fights to give the new healers some experience.

Even though I know you were joking, my guild has actually had some issues with healing prima donnas demanding more gear and compensation or they would quit in the middle of the raid. They are generally asked once if they are joking, if not immediately /gkicked. That hasn't happened since before BC though.

awesome, I wish those type of players (regardless of class) were dealt with this way more often. it ruins the fun and can destroy a guild when you have some people thinking and acting liek they are better than anyone else.

[Twoboxer]

are you kidding? I've made some of the best elite gear with crafting... not too mention some really nice cash.

and tracking down everything you need to craft a particular item can be as intensive and enjoyable as a raid.

Profitable? Yes.
Best Elite Gear? Sometimes, but rarely in most MMOs
Boring? Always lol

Seriously, "boring" is a totally subjective judgement. I've chased women friends thought were boring, and vice-versa

Played EQ2 since day 1 until a year ago. Raiding was more fun for us than anything else simply because our progression as a Guild matched the release of new expansions pretty well. As a result, we were nearly always facing new challenges, had fun when we got together as a team, and so were never bored.

We just bought the few things we needed from the crafters

[melanieshaman]

Now you sound like my wife. she hates to raid and loves PVP... which I hate most times.

Raiding is enjoyable for those that dont mind taking there time and working together to take down an opponent that is obviously overpowered against you.
being able to take 10-25 people and work together, with the right strategy, and with the right timing, and take down a mob that can only be classified as truly 'elite' (aka: rotten sob) can be an incredibly exhilarating experiance. add to that the random chance of getting a really awesome peice of gear, add to that the social interaction of those same 10-25 people having fun at the same time...

well, raiding isnt for eveyone but it can be a really enjoyable time for those who like it.

I used to rather enjoy raiding.. i used to spend hours upon hours in MC, ZG, AQ... then later Kara, etc... it just got to be repetitive and boring... although i am a pvper...if the raid is well done and has alot of flavor i will enjoy it.