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#1 dice

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 03:38 AM

The word that elicits either ostentatious shuddering or snorting contempt from MMORPG players...

Do we have any information as to how this is dealt with?
I noticed that (in one of the interviews?) DA said that death would not cause loss of experience, but merely hinder the player in terms of time; plus whatever tithes need to be paid to the temple of the deity of your choice to make death a less difficult experience...

Is QOL willing to release any more specific information at this time, or will it be released later on with the rest of the deity stuff?

From the point of view of a gamer, I believe that if you are going to err one way or the other, err in the direction of making death too harsh. After all, it is _dying_. Very few things annoy me more than trivial death in RPG's.

However, I like the idea that experience is not lost from dying; I just think that death should be harsh in other ways...

For example: time. Some form of resurrection sickness should be mandatory. Spells should be difficult to cast soon after resurrection, fatigue should set in earlier. It takes the mind and body a while to recuperate from flatline!

Statistics should slowly climb back up (although skills, I believe, should not be lost; although the ability to use them (due to temporarily reduced statistics) might be hampered).

And how does an angry deity make death less pleasant for a slack worshipper? Hopefully, it will be more than just increased rez sickness time... Some form of torture/punishment would be neat (depending on the Deity, of course... wouldn't expect the goddess of light and goodness to get all medieval on someone's hindquarters).

Anyways, just a few questions that I thought might spark some interest in this topic...

#2 Iago

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 07:51 AM

I discussed this a little bit over here. If we use WoW as an indicator, we can probably assume that a considerable majority prefers lighter death penalties. That can be criticized as being too "easy." but I think it comes down to the fact that the average player resents excessive downtime when they're paying $15.00 a month to play the game. Any time the game mechanics force you to simply stop and wait until you can adequately play again, antipathy starts building.

WoW probably has the most merciful death system to date. Brief timesink in returning to your corpse (quite brief, considering that it's done as an invulnerable ghost, which moves rather quickly and doesn't have to duck mobs), and a money sink in repair bills (minor at first, but gets rather hefty at endgame). The point was really to give the player some sort of slap on the wrist, but let them get back to the game and play.

It's not just a matter of inconveniencing the player, but also their group. If a small party of players is off in a dungeon and one dies, and no means of ressurection are available, should everyone be stuck waiting while the dead guy waits out his sickness and/or hoofs it back to the dungeon? I think that's something Blizzard was trying to avoid.

#3 Kabooki

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 08:18 AM

WoW does have one of the better death systems out there since it doesn't take away much from the player. We don't believe that a player should "lose" what they have worked hard for up to the point of death, I can remember playing some games and losing like an hour of my life due death and losing exp. The nice thing is with deities, that we can have a nice little storyline when it comes to death and not just make it "whoops you died!!"

#4 Syndic

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:09 AM

Yeah death systems are always a tricky thing to balance. What one player sees as a minor inconvienance others see as a deterant to an enjoyable play session.

I believe a system that doesn't penalise too harshly for the odd occasion death but gets more severe the more you consistently die as a fair system.

I didn't play WoW for more than a few hours so can't really comment on it's death system. EQ1 and EQ2 I cetainly can comment on. It seems the XP penalty of EQ1 is long gone, games now preferring to give debt than the actually remove XP from you. I see debt as a reasonable way to punish people for death, but there are those out there that just ignore it and are not phased, becuase it is not taking away something they already have, it is working on future earnings. With debt systems also the debt wears away with time so in some cases the future earnings are not even effected. Leaving you with a system where people can avoid the effects of death.

Then you have equipment damage, or some sort of monetary reparations, I think these can work well to with balance, as long as it doesn't become crippling to players or disturbs a play session too often. eg. running back to town naked for repairs while the group waits.

Then you also have the run back to a corpse/spirit/marker to collect possesions.

I think a mixture of the first 2 would be ideal in my books. There is nothing more disturbing to a play session than to have a player die and have to wait for them to return to the party, mean while all those that survived start to fall asleep at the keyboard with boredom. Equipment damage is a good idea for penalty, although as long as it is in such a way that this equipment damage leads to broken play sessions as people have to run back to town. Nothing breaks up a group faster than a broken play session. XP debt works well also but can leave people upset as they log out due to their future play experience is hampered.

I guess the big problem lies in Death should penalise the player, yet the last thing a player wants to do is play a game (on a per session basis) that penalises them. over the years more often than not a string of deaths has led to a string of log outs and upset players.

#5 S0ulb0und

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 06:43 AM

Death is just a tricky subject when it comes to figuring out the penalties. I say as long as it doesn't take money or too much XP away it's whatever you want because whether they like it or not the players will learn to live with it. I say money or too much XP because in the early levels these can be serious losses in some cases. O well like i said anything you decide and mostly all the players will get used to it.

#6 Zianix

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:24 AM

I think the death system for WoW was near to perfect..... can't say anything bad about that system. The best thing is to just make it an minor penalty to die, and to run to ur corpse and get durabbility decreased is a good way to do so.

Can't think of any other system to be honest.

#7 Retina

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 08:21 PM

Please don't take this wrong, I'm ranting at Blizzard and WoW, not anyone here :) You are all great! They just made a Fisher-Price MMO is all.

WoW frankly doesn't have a death penalty. It has a very minor inconvenience for death, but no penalty to speak of. A ding in your gear is not even close to a penalty. You don't even have to do a corpse run either. Just throw a few bob at the fairy and everything is fine.

If they're going to call it a penalty, then make it one. Require a corpse run. Have a nice big XP debt. Give a little or a lot back if they get their corpse.

The point is you died. You still learned something from that (ie experience), but in a very negative way. This should cause you to really think about your actions for a while (ie debt). I don't like loss because, as I've said, you did learn something even if it is what not to do. But you should still have a penalty and that is where debt comes in. You can call debt "a loss of future xp" but that is better than going backwards, isn't it?

Now if you have to have xp loss, go with what DAoC did. You lose xp but will never lose a level. You also get a big chunk back when praying at your tombstone.

EDIT: Thinking again about past games, I liked AOs as well. Checkpoints. You die, you revert. Simple.

#8 Zianix

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 07:51 AM

I think it's a perfect penalty, to run is not fun... and durabbility can cost. If you have good gear. I don't want the penalty to be big. So it's perfect. And which fairy you talking about? The spirit healer? Cause if u ress there you get A LOT of durabbility decrease and also get a ress sickness which make you weak for 10 or 15 min or whatever it was, and if u are in a middle of a quest....that's not fun.

#9 Excerion

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 08:37 AM

Please don't take this wrong, I'm ranting at Blizzard and WoW, not anyone here :) You are all great! They just made a Fisher-Price MMO is all.

WoW frankly doesn't have a death penalty. It has a very minor inconvenience for death, but no penalty to speak of. A ding in your gear is not even close to a penalty. You don't even have to do a corpse run either. Just throw a few bob at the fairy and everything is fine.

If they're going to call it a penalty, then make it one. Require a corpse run. Have a nice big XP debt. Give a little or a lot back if they get their corpse.

The point is you died. You still learned something from that (ie experience), but in a very negative way. This should cause you to really think about your actions for a while (ie debt). I don't like loss because, as I've said, you did learn something even if it is what not to do. But you should still have a penalty and that is where debt comes in. You can call debt "a loss of future xp" but that is better than going backwards, isn't it?

Now if you have to have xp loss, go with what DAoC did. You lose xp but will never lose a level. You also get a big chunk back when praying at your tombstone.

EDIT: Thinking again about past games, I liked AOs as well. Checkpoints. You die, you revert. Simple.


I still think its better to have a small penalty than a large one.

In the early days of EQ when you had exped for hours, one tiny mistake
made you loose ALL the exp you had gathered and in fact making all that time you spent playing meaningless i bet that
thing alone made sure some people rather went to UO or some other game.

I even think i've read a Horizons (pre blackout) article that has DA
mention that he doesnt think players should be punished for a mistake
by removing time or something like that :)


I completely agree!

#10 lurker1

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Posted 16 September 2006 - 11:39 PM

WoW does have one of the better death systems out there since it doesn't take away much from the player. We don't believe that a player should "lose" what they have worked hard for up to the point of death, I can remember playing some games and losing like an hour of my life due death and losing exp. The nice thing is with deities, that we can have a nice little storyline when it comes to death and not just make it "whoops you died!!"



Humm interesting could this mean that you guys may have some kind of quest or interesting option that will allow you to get your corpse for lack a a better word back or Xp or even gain it back.

I personally would love to see something along these lines an option of sorts that could actually be benifical when you kick the bucket so to speak.Something like you go before your choosen god and depending on how he sees you he could return you to life or have you do something for him to regain your life.

It would be interesting to me anyway anything but WOWs system, death shouldn't take away from the player but it should mean something and make him think twice about something he is going to do before he does it.

#11 Zheng

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 08:56 AM

WoW's death "penalty" is not even close to perfect. It's terrible. There is no reason not to run in Leeroy Jenkins style and get yourself destroyed because you just get right back up. It makes PvP ridiculous and repetitive and you learn nothing from mistakes. Nothing.

City of Heroes, however is just about perfect in my opinion, you lose a small amount of time and no xp loss per se, but you incur xp debt. Depending on your level, you incur a certain amount of xp you must pay back before you can start earning it at the full rate agian. You are, in essence, losing xp without actually losing it.

Combine that with retriving your items from your old corpse and I think that's fair and prevents you from abusing it (like WoW) while maintaining SOME semblance of a penalty for being stupid.

#12 Syndic

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 01:20 AM

WoW's death "penalty" is not even close to perfect. It's terrible. There is no reason not to run in Leeroy Jenkins style and get yourself destroyed because you just get right back up. It makes PvP ridiculous and repetitive and you learn nothing from mistakes. Nothing.

City of Heroes, however is just about perfect in my opinion, you lose a small amount of time and no xp loss per se, but you incur xp debt. Depending on your level, you incur a certain amount of xp you must pay back before you can start earning it at the full rate agian. You are, in essence, losing xp without actually losing it.

Combine that with retriving your items from your old corpse and I think that's fair and prevents you from abusing it (like WoW) while maintaining SOME semblance of a penalty for being stupid.

CoH and EQ2 have very similar death systems, although EQ2's has gone through some changes since release to be nothing more than a very slight annoyance. Death really did mean very little so far in every game I've played except EQ1.

Lose of XP is harsh I guess, but you certainly played cautiously. These days when playing I guess I can play reckless at times, and thats not RPing, thats really just a case of who cares if I die.

I like the idea that a death now and then is not a drama, but a few in a row can really dampen you spirits, so although you maybe reckless to start with after 1-2 deaths you really start to think about what you should be doing. XP penalty is certainly better than XP loss.

If you have item durability I like EQ2's the best of any game I've tried, if not durability of items involved than something like Horizons.

Personally I would love to see something where what the person was doing at the time of death factors into how big the penalty was. Trying to kill a mob around your level should be small, since that is what you would be doing most often and would most likely die to unfortunate circumstances like lag or disconnection. As the level gets further above or below you the penalty gets greater. Even multiple mobs, boss mobs could be a factor. Multiple deaths is one cause of raids ending, so maybe making the penalty less on certain mobs will increase enjoyment and lessen frustration. Conversely you could increase the penalty to balance the reward. Things like falling damage death I'd make harsh becuase you should be watching where your going :).
I think it would be interesting to see a system where the greater the risk, the greater the reward but coupled with greater the penalty also.

#13 MasterMind

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 03:25 PM

remember that it's a game and people will be buying it and paying the fee's to have fun.

WoW's death penalty is high enough to make you be cautious about what situations you get yourself into, but not so bad that you are afraid to even attempt tackling a specific monster or dungeon. Quests that require a party won't be as big of a pain if you group with the wrong people, greifing will be curbed.

Not all of us are hardcore gamers that get to play all day, for me the time it took to run back to my corpse, the gold cost for repairs, and being interrupted in what I was trying to accomplish was penalty enough. Depending on the length of the corpse run and mob respawn timers and density, it'd also quite often be a chore to just avoid the mobs that respawned during your down time.

I'm actually in favor of having a much more severe penalty, or even a permanent death system available to those that wish to play that way, but forcing it on everyone will severely limit your player base no matter how good the other aspects of the game are. (Having no penalty will also alienate a good part of the player base)

#14 MasterMind

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 03:31 PM

I remember buying ultima online several years ago and immediately un-installing it when I was killed by a cow or maby chicken.

it's that sort of retarded difficulty that needs to be avoided.

#15 Ap0cks

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 10:04 PM

I know not many people here have probably not played runescape or i am guessing most haven't.

Anyway some people say its horrible and i'll agree it's on the lower end side of games.

However i think they have a great death system.
Upon death-
-The player keeps with them only their 3 best items
If certain quests are completed more items are kept.
-They are sent to their "home location"
-No xp is lost
-No money is owed
-Huge time detriment. (Gives player time to think "o crap that is something i'm not doing again...")

Also the items they didnt keep are then dropped as if a monster had been killed and dropped an item. The player has a set amount of time to go retrieve their items and after thatt ime is up they become public for any passer-by to pick up.

#16 Wolfsong

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 07:38 PM

I have no problem with harsh death penalties.

A. You shouldn't be dying *that* often anyway
B. If it's a harsh enough death penalty, players *should* be using their heads more to avoid it even more.

My overall view is this... If you're rewarded for success... You should be penalized for failure. And if you're dying so often to make it *that* big a problem, then you or your group are doing something terribly wrong and need to rethink their strategy.

I'm a big fan of FFXI where you get a death weakness, you lose xp and you can lose a level. To be honest, I love that system. It's rare to ever see people dying so many times in a short period of time to make it that big a deal. And, in some areas of FFXI you don't lose any xp at all if you die - such as more difficult instance or quest-related areas. Outside of those areas, though, for the most part, people tend to be more careful in where they go, are more wary of their surroundings and are more careful of what fights they choose. They're not nearly so "la-dee-daa" about running into danger because they know the penalty for screwing up is a serious one.

As for WoW's death penalty... to me.. honestly... "What death penalty?" It's an inconvenience at most. It does nothing to make me feel like I need to be careful. I have no trepidation at all about running into a high level area because if I die... so what? Heck, in some cases it benefits me because the cemetery I revive at is actually closer to where I was heading anyway. It's actually a convenience.

That said, I've seen people complaining that even WoW's death penalty is "too harsh" and want it made even *lighter*. These people don't want any penalty, at all, of any kind, ever. It should be just "reward reward reward reward reward" all the time. That's just absurd.

Though it's often argued, I rarely ever see the idea that "people naturally want to avoid death and will do so regardless of the penalty" hold so true in games that have a penalty like that of WoW - because it simply isn't harsh enough to be a big deal. A more harsh penalty sucks... Yes, it's supposed to. The point is be more careful next time and don't make the same mistake again.

I've seen the argument "Oh well I don't have a lot of time to play and it wastes time that I could be progressing"... In a genre such as MMOs where people will spend hundreds or thousands of hours anyway... 30-60 minutes every so often - again unless you're just *that* death prone - is *not* that big a deal.

So even if it's not xp loss... I think something more than "some death weakness and a repair bill" would be appropriate.

#17 lostheaven77

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 05:22 AM

I think Death Penalty should be based on loyalty to your chosen Deity. Each Deity has a list of "options" when you die and a random "personality factor". For example lets say you follow the God of War his options would be :

Raise you on the field of battle as pure fighting machine (5 minute buff to combat stats/skills)

Punish you for dying in battle you should have won (2 minute debuff to combat stats/skills)

Honor you with gift of battle wisdom for fighting to your death against a superior enemy (10 minute bonus to xp gain for combat skills)

War God's Anger (special aoe that targets those around you , as you have special favor with your Deity.)

War God's Blessing ( special buff for the priest /medic who raised you during battle)

War God's Avatar (special summons that joins you on the battle field after you die)

#18 Syndic

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 04:54 PM

On the side of making the "weakness and a repair bill" death penalty, if the target of the game is to make a fun experience then a harsh penalty doesn't fit. No matter what you do with it you can't make recovering from a death "fun". Now you have the argument of if there are no unfun bits how do you guage the fun bits. Also is doing something without risk fun? My answer would be it depends on the person. Some people would be saying the fun is going and doing new and different things and seeing new places etc, others would say it would be the same as before but overcoming great odds/obsticles to get to the goal. Some people love the "challenge" of having something that is really going hurt if you don't make it but is going to really exillerate you if you succeed. I think we all look for that in our own way but the real problem comes down to what you consider to be a challenge. Everyone has different skill levels. MMO's target the largest market they can so the skill level is lower than some would like.

The harsh penalties of EQ1 back in the day ruined so many play sessions that it not only became unfun to play but usually removed any fun you had with the whole play session.

I still think XP debt, or XP loss, of a minor amount (about 4-5 kills worth), a repair bill, a debuff that lasts a few minutes (for those in combat resses) is sufficient.

I also support a death system that is very mild to start with but gets worse the more consecutive times you die. If you can't learn from your mistakes then you should really pay.
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#19 Grimmway

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 07:52 AM

...

I also support a death system that is very mild to start with but gets worse the more consecutive times you die. If you can't learn from your mistakes then you should really pay.


A secondary timer that kept track of recent deaths could make this easy to implement.

Grimmway

#20 Syndic

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 03:16 PM

Horizons already does this, I know there is no relation between the games, but it is certainly a death system not used in any other game I've come across. Although recently it got redone, to incorporate food as a way of reducing penalty, I haven't played recently to see how this changes things, the old way was a good example of how death is not bad unless you fumble alot.
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